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Proud To Punt
11 Feb 11 13:12
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Date Joined: 12 Apr 05
| Topic/replies: 3,047 | Blogger: Proud To Punt's blog
I became a proud punter in the late 80's, early 90's era. At this time, there were no bigger or better trainers in the land than David Hayes and Lee Freedman. I loved the rivalry they had and to be honest, I thought they were the best the business had ever seen and corner the market.
So here we are years later and to be honest, neither of them have set the world on fire for many years bar the odd exceptional horse. From an outsiders view, they are now just another member of the training ranks.
My question is, how did it get to this? Is it just one of those cyclical things or are there other reasons? I would love to hear thoughts from forumites.
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Report Proud To Punt February 11, 2011 1:15 PM GMT
This thread was inspired by a trip down memory lane with the viewing of Super, Better, Best
Report got beat by a whisker-again February 11, 2011 1:19 PM GMT
Its cyclical--Fuuuuuuking cyclers--they ruin everythingSadShockedShockedLaugh
Report lazza February 11, 2011 1:20 PM GMT
Laugh
Report lazza February 11, 2011 1:23 PM GMT
I'll guarantee their Bank A/Cs havnt gone down...If u know what I mean [;)]
Report Proud To Punt February 11, 2011 1:32 PM GMT
Freedman was on the decline early in the new millenium IMO. Mummify and the Mare certainly kept him ticking over, but after them the cupboard was bare. He and Hayes were premiership trainers, racking up Gr1's all over the show to this.
Report value bet February 11, 2011 9:05 PM GMT
Their horses are 3-4 lengths LESS fitter than they were 10 - 20 years ago.

They have lost their "eye" for 100% fitness and that is what makes Bart exceptional as he hits 100% many times with his good horses on the right day.

Freedman and Hayes make basic mistakes in fitness whether their horse's are running up the bush or the city.

Plus why bother!

It's a tough game and the owners are the ones that miss out.
Report TeenQueen February 11, 2011 9:19 PM GMT
Good topic PTP, I was wondering the same last night when the guys on TVN started talking about Moody and his strike rate and Dr. Turf mentioned Hayes & Freedman. It was the same with Hawkes in Sydney wasn't it?

I went completely missing from racing for about 10-15 years and expected many of the same names to be at the top when I returned, but they're not. Actually G. Waterhouse is surprisingly the only one that was in Sydney.

I'm tipping that C. Waller will still be at the top in 10 years, P. Snowden won't, G. Waterhouse will but I don't really know that much about Melbourne. I guess most reason behind trainers being at the top is also the size of their stable, and if a trainer doesn't want it too big then they're never going to be on top of the premiership, but IMO, G. Begg and G. Walter in Sydney are among the best and should be near the top!

STS, I believe you're right though. The reasons you've mentioned are spot on I believe.
Report earlycrow February 11, 2011 10:18 PM GMT
Beware the sleeping giants, I think they'll be back maybe not to the same level, maybe the drive is a little less these days having done it all, but the eye is still sharp and the wealthy owners are still there which is a good mix
Report Thebas February 12, 2011 12:51 AM GMT
freedman lost the plot around about the time of noel callow ... and started to publicly ridicule him etc ...
and then other jockeys ...  the prob with lee is ... he don't have a clue when it comes to riding em ...
but opens his gob regardless

... i like lee tho ... he's got a great laugh & sense of humour ... and can make you smile

oh yeah ... and at some point in his mind ... lee decided to sack both damian oliver & corey brown ... who both
then went on to excel in their trade ... about the same time as lee started to fade

but yes it is cyclical and lee could come back again ...

re david ... well who ever knows
Report themaster007 February 12, 2011 1:05 AM GMT
D Hayes is in the process of opening his new training centre in Euroa in Vic, has been concentrating on doing that instead of training horses and winners.

TONY McEvoy will be in the top 10 trainers in Australia with-in 5 years, has been winning races everywhere with second hand horses, that he has purchased from tried horse sales. WATCH for him in the coming season.

As for Lee Freedman, champion bloke, but just enjoys his life to much and has too much money, to worry about training horses, BUT the guy DOES know how to train a good horse,  he has one that is just around the corner, so that WILL make him keen again.


themaster007
Report burgess February 12, 2011 1:20 AM GMT
They should all look at Queensland greyhound trainer Reg Kay,goes for quality over quantity and breeds his own.The true master.
Report Mrben February 12, 2011 1:29 AM GMT
I think it is a combination of age, financial comfort and the elephant in the room- drug detection.
Both hayes and freedman are more than financially secure, both are much older.How can they maintain their motivation?
  The other thing is as drug detection methods have gotten better and better the trainers that dominated during the lower detection eras have dropped off the radar.Gai being the probable exception.
Freedman was rubbed out several times for various offences, the ones I can remember off hand are the eencosta de lago bicarb soda doping and  blood doping{can't remember the horse}.Hayes got rubbed out as well I'm sure.
  Do you remember Dr Geoff Chapman of Myocard fame? As soon as they banned steriods he handed in his   licence.
  Guys with a net worth over 10million$, over 50yo getting up at 3am to train horses with out drugs, is it any wonder they are not doing so well?
Report Craig The Speculator February 12, 2011 2:29 AM GMT
great thread guys - finding it very interesting reading
Report Proud To Punt February 12, 2011 2:36 AM GMT
Omen bet in R6 Caulfield - # 13 - AIN'TNOFALLENSTAR   Trainer: Lee Freedman(Mornington)
Report Proud To Punt February 12, 2011 2:40 AM GMT
interesting thoughts folks, cheers. You are all probably right and there are many reasons and they all add up to where they currently stand.
Report earlycrow February 12, 2011 3:09 AM GMT
Bet you David would love to have C. Williams back
Report logroller February 12, 2011 3:12 AM GMT
D.Hayes financial comfort.......i dont think so
Report earlycrow February 12, 2011 3:16 AM GMT
?
Report starofthemagi February 12, 2011 4:00 AM GMT
u will see freedy strike back on wednesday, by panels !!!!!!!!!!
Report The Big O February 12, 2011 1:07 PM GMT
I reckon Freedman is still training well. Probably scaled back numbers wise and his overseas purchases have been a bit of a misfire.

His strike rate would be panels better than Hayes.

Is it true that he has lost his supply from Darley???
Report The Big O February 12, 2011 1:11 PM GMT
Masthead flying SOTM??

Form around his debut very nice with the O'Shea filly running well behind fkn smart one at Randwick today
Report starofthemagi February 12, 2011 7:58 PM GMT
c williams rides wed..BIG O,yes.
he only 6 darleys instead of 20.
Report Proud To Punt February 12, 2011 8:10 PM GMT
I agree Big O in that Freedy is still training well, just doesn't seem to have multiple horses in the stable with real ability. I wonder if they (Hayes included) took the eye off the ball re yearling/breeding selections at various stages over the years? Hayes was the 2yo king when he came back from Honkers, however even that well has dried up for him. Hayes obviously is committed to Lindsay Park Stud breds and if they don't fire, well in a hurry, the stable would be full of average horses. I sincerely hope they both return to headline acts in the not to distant future.
Report Monday mike February 13, 2011 5:48 AM GMT
Freedman must get his medicine man vet back off Moody.
Report Melbourne_Punter February 13, 2011 11:40 AM GMT
its all in the chemist, no dope no winner
Report Monday mike February 15, 2011 12:41 PM GMT
No surprise from FreedmanCool, can't post thoughts here or will get erased.  Hayes????? Wonder if he is in financial trouble.? Maybe wrong, still you don't drop that quick.  Hope he's not a big punter.
Report VeryLTU February 18, 2011 11:46 AM GMT
Just a cycle for both of them, if they really want to get back to the top they will. In DH's case he copped a big setback when the old man sold all his group winning broodmares .....and then Without Fear died. It's going to take a long time to replace those mares, a silly idea from the old man imo. Lee is probably living in hope that a couple of hundred frozen blood samples ... get thrown out in the rubbish.
Report thewhip February 18, 2011 10:47 PM GMT
Jav in the same boat in regards to frozen blood samples, it would be bye bye Shockings Melbourne Cup
Report thewhip February 18, 2011 10:48 PM GMT
Kav*
Report Craig The Speculator February 19, 2011 2:37 AM GMT
in that case 2009 would be the asterisk year what with the Storm and Shocking
Report themaster007 February 19, 2011 3:05 AM GMT
CORRECT............... Whip along with Danny O'Brien
Report BertK February 19, 2011 10:50 AM GMT
Hayes spending a small fortune on a property in Victoria, costing something like  $20 mill after sell down at Lindsay Park. Not as hungry any more.  Freedmans frozen samples, how long do they last, could have slowed him down a bit. They sent D Brauns harness sample all over the world, do they thaw out? D Braun stables with D Thorn when in town???? Interesting. Maybe they are keeping all these samples on ice again in the gallops so Freedies have slowed.
Report Proud To Punt February 19, 2011 8:26 PM GMT
At least Freedy is still bobbing up here and there to keep the winners ticking over. Of course nothing like the glory days, however he's still chipping away. Not sure I can say the same about D.Hayes. I mean, he just seems to haven fallen off the map.
Report value bet February 19, 2011 8:54 PM GMT
Freedman took one to adelaide yesterday in a 1800 metres race, it was gone 500 out because of poor fitness levels.

Now the owners would of had to fork our $$$????? to go over there with a horse not fit to win.

It is just not fair on the owners and poor training.
Report omisterhardwick February 19, 2011 9:23 PM GMT
giving craig williams and craig newitt the flick and getting that hack dwayne dunn to ride your horses surely doesn't help either.Grin
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