I became a proud punter in the late 80's, early 90's era. At this time, there were no bigger or better trainers in the land than David Hayes and Lee Freedman. I loved the rivalry they had and to be honest, I thought they were the best the business had ever seen and corner the market. So here we are years later and to be honest, neither of them have set the world on fire for many years bar the odd exceptional horse. From an outsiders view, they are now just another member of the training ranks. My question is, how did it get to this? Is it just one of those cyclical things or are there other reasons? I would love to hear thoughts from forumites.
Freedman was on the decline early in the new millenium IMO. Mummify and the Mare certainly kept him ticking over, but after them the cupboard was bare. He and Hayes were premiership trainers, racking up Gr1's all over the show to this.
Freedman was on the decline early in the new millenium IMO. Mummify and the Mare certainly kept him ticking over, but after them the cupboard was bare. He and Hayes were premiership trainers, racking up Gr1's all over the show to this.
Their horses are 3-4 lengths LESS fitter than they were 10 - 20 years ago.
They have lost their "eye" for 100% fitness and that is what makes Bart exceptional as he hits 100% many times with his good horses on the right day.
Freedman and Hayes make basic mistakes in fitness whether their horse's are running up the bush or the city.
Plus why bother!
It's a tough game and the owners are the ones that miss out.
Their horses are 3-4 lengths LESS fitter than they were 10 - 20 years ago.They have lost their "eye" for 100% fitness and that is what makes Bart exceptional as he hits 100% many times with his good horses on the right day.Freedman and Hayes make bas
Good topic PTP, I was wondering the same last night when the guys on TVN started talking about Moody and his strike rate and Dr. Turf mentioned Hayes & Freedman. It was the same with Hawkes in Sydney wasn't it?
I went completely missing from racing for about 10-15 years and expected many of the same names to be at the top when I returned, but they're not. Actually G. Waterhouse is surprisingly the only one that was in Sydney.
I'm tipping that C. Waller will still be at the top in 10 years, P. Snowden won't, G. Waterhouse will but I don't really know that much about Melbourne. I guess most reason behind trainers being at the top is also the size of their stable, and if a trainer doesn't want it too big then they're never going to be on top of the premiership, but IMO, G. Begg and G. Walter in Sydney are among the best and should be near the top!
STS, I believe you're right though. The reasons you've mentioned are spot on I believe.
Good topic PTP, I was wondering the same last night when the guys on TVN started talking about Moody and his strike rate and Dr. Turf mentioned Hayes & Freedman. It was the same with Hawkes in Sydney wasn't it?I went completely missing from racing fo
Beware the sleeping giants, I think they'll be back maybe not to the same level, maybe the drive is a little less these days having done it all, but the eye is still sharp and the wealthy owners are still there which is a good mix
Beware the sleeping giants, I think they'll be back maybe not to the same level, maybe the drive is a little less these days having done it all, but the eye is still sharp and the wealthy owners are still there which is a good mix
freedman lost the plot around about the time of noel callow ... and started to publicly ridicule him etc ... and then other jockeys ... the prob with lee is ... he don't have a clue when it comes to riding em ... but opens his gob regardless
... i like lee tho ... he's got a great laugh & sense of humour ... and can make you smile
oh yeah ... and at some point in his mind ... lee decided to sack both damian oliver & corey brown ... who both then went on to excel in their trade ... about the same time as lee started to fade
but yes it is cyclical and lee could come back again ...
re david ... well who ever knows
freedman lost the plot around about the time of noel callow ... and started to publicly ridicule him etc ...and then other jockeys ... the prob with lee is ... he don't have a clue when it comes to riding em ...but opens his gob regardless ... i lik
D Hayes is in the process of opening his new training centre in Euroa in Vic, has been concentrating on doing that instead of training horses and winners.
TONY McEvoy will be in the top 10 trainers in Australia with-in 5 years, has been winning races everywhere with second hand horses, that he has purchased from tried horse sales. WATCH for him in the coming season.
As for Lee Freedman, champion bloke, but just enjoys his life to much and has too much money, to worry about training horses, BUT the guy DOES know how to train a good horse, he has one that is just around the corner, so that WILL make him keen again.
themaster007
D Hayes is in the process of opening his new training centre in Euroa in Vic, has been concentrating on doing that instead of training horses and winners. TONY McEvoy will be in the top 10 trainers in Australia with-in 5 years, has been winning race
I think it is a combination of age, financial comfort and the elephant in the room- drug detection. Both hayes and freedman are more than financially secure, both are much older.How can they maintain their motivation? The other thing is as drug detection methods have gotten better and better the trainers that dominated during the lower detection eras have dropped off the radar.Gai being the probable exception. Freedman was rubbed out several times for various offences, the ones I can remember off hand are the eencosta de lago bicarb soda doping and blood doping{can't remember the horse}.Hayes got rubbed out as well I'm sure. Do you remember Dr Geoff Chapman of Myocard fame? As soon as they banned steriods he handed in his licence. Guys with a net worth over 10million$, over 50yo getting up at 3am to train horses with out drugs, is it any wonder they are not doing so well?
I think it is a combination of age, financial comfort and the elephant in the room- drug detection.Both hayes and freedman are more than financially secure, both are much older.How can they maintain their motivation? The other thing is as drug detec
I reckon Freedman is still training well. Probably scaled back numbers wise and his overseas purchases have been a bit of a misfire.
His strike rate would be panels better than Hayes.
Is it true that he has lost his supply from Darley???
I reckon Freedman is still training well. Probably scaled back numbers wise and his overseas purchases have been a bit of a misfire. His strike rate would be panels better than Hayes. Is it true that he has lost his supply from Darley???
I agree Big O in that Freedy is still training well, just doesn't seem to have multiple horses in the stable with real ability. I wonder if they (Hayes included) took the eye off the ball re yearling/breeding selections at various stages over the years? Hayes was the 2yo king when he came back from Honkers, however even that well has dried up for him. Hayes obviously is committed to Lindsay Park Stud breds and if they don't fire, well in a hurry, the stable would be full of average horses. I sincerely hope they both return to headline acts in the not to distant future.
I agree Big O in that Freedy is still training well, just doesn't seem to have multiple horses in the stable with real ability. I wonder if they (Hayes included) took the eye off the ball re yearling/breeding selections at various stages over the yea
No surprise from Freedman, can't post thoughts here or will get erased. Hayes????? Wonder if he is in financial trouble.? Maybe wrong, still you don't drop that quick. Hope he's not a big punter.
No surprise from Freedman, can't post thoughts here or will get erased. Hayes????? Wonder if he is in financial trouble.? Maybe wrong, still you don't drop that quick. Hope he's not a big punter.
Just a cycle for both of them, if they really want to get back to the top they will. In DH's case he copped a big setback when the old man sold all his group winning broodmares .....and then Without Fear died. It's going to take a long time to replace those mares, a silly idea from the old man imo. Lee is probably living in hope that a couple of hundred frozen blood samples ... get thrown out in the rubbish.
Just a cycle for both of them, if they really want to get back to the top they will. In DH's case he copped a big setback when the old man sold all his group winning broodmares .....and then Without Fear died. It's going to take a long time to replac
Hayes spending a small fortune on a property in Victoria, costing something like $20 mill after sell down at Lindsay Park. Not as hungry any more. Freedmans frozen samples, how long do they last, could have slowed him down a bit. They sent D Brauns harness sample all over the world, do they thaw out? D Braun stables with D Thorn when in town???? Interesting. Maybe they are keeping all these samples on ice again in the gallops so Freedies have slowed.
Hayes spending a small fortune on a property in Victoria, costing something like $20 mill after sell down at Lindsay Park. Not as hungry any more. Freedmans frozen samples, how long do they last, could have slowed him down a bit. They sent D Brauns
At least Freedy is still bobbing up here and there to keep the winners ticking over. Of course nothing like the glory days, however he's still chipping away. Not sure I can say the same about D.Hayes. I mean, he just seems to haven fallen off the map.
At least Freedy is still bobbing up here and there to keep the winners ticking over. Of course nothing like the glory days, however he's still chipping away. Not sure I can say the same about D.Hayes. I mean, he just seems to haven fallen off the map
Freedman took one to adelaide yesterday in a 1800 metres race, it was gone 500 out because of poor fitness levels.
Now the owners would of had to fork our $$$????? to go over there with a horse not fit to win.
It is just not fair on the owners and poor training.
Freedman took one to adelaide yesterday in a 1800 metres race, it was gone 500 out because of poor fitness levels.Now the owners would of had to fork our $$$????? to go over there with a horse not fit to win.It is just not fair on the owners and poor