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tony57
09 Jul 18 15:09
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Date Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 11,261 | Blogger: tony57's blog
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/brexit-the-next-campaign-by-a-former-civil-servant/
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Report mrtopnotch July 10, 2018 11:02 AM BST
Fintan O’Toole: Britain has gone to huge trouble to humiliate itself
Best possible Brexit outcome is the worst of both worlds, a state neither in nor out

Fintan O'Toole

The best headline about British prime minister Theresa May’s short-lived triumph over the hard Brexiteers last Friday was undoubtedly the one on Pádraig Collins’s report in the Guardian: “Possum rescued after getting head stuck in Nutella jar”.

Admittedly, Collins was actually reporting, not from Chequers, but from Brisbane, Australia. Yet the accompanying photograph was the perfect image of what May is trying to do. It showed the furry creature all curled up and immobilised with its head completely encased in a glass jar streaked with visible residues of sticky brown stuff. As a spokesman for the Australian RSPCA explained, the dumb animal “managed to get his head in the jar, but obviously couldn’t get it out”. The rescuer put “towels around the possum so she could get him out of the jar without getting scratched by his claws”.

Though in colour it may look like Nutella, it is actually a different kind of sticky brown stuff
The story saves me the trouble of thinking up a metaphor. The Brexiteers have their heads stuck in a jar of sticky brown stuff that seemed so sweet and enticing. May’s compromise deal and the White Paper she is still expected to publish this week are the towels wrapped round the Brexiteers’ claws so that their heads can be pulled out of the jar without her premiership getting scratched to death.

Distorting lens
The only problem is that David Davis and Boris Johnson, having been successfully extracted, decided to bare their claws again. As any possum or two-year-old child will tell you, sticking your head inside a glass jar is quite a thrill. You get to see the world through a distorting lens that creates a comforting distance between you and reality. You can’t hear unwanted voices raising awkward questions. Brexit has so far been conducted through a glass darkly. It has been seen through glorious fantasies of imperial revival and layers of self-pity about imaginary oppression. What May has been attempting, very late in the day, is to force her more deluded colleagues to get their heads out of the jar and look directly at Brexit.

She has shown them the best-case scenario, the most desirable possible outcome. And though in colour it may look like Nutella, it is actually a different kind of sticky brown stuff. “Human kind,” said TS Eliot, “cannot bear very much reality,” and the same is surely true of Davis, Johnson and their fellow diehards. May has finally managed to disenchant the Brexit project, to strip away its heroic veneer. And instead of a date with destiny, it looks awfully like a loveless marriage, entered into with a heavy heart because the only alternative is unbearable loneliness.

The Brexit the British are now officially seeking is indeed miserable. Instead of the Star Trek vision of boldly going where no imperial-nostalgic society had gone before, it would not have enough thrust to get the UK out of the gravitational pull of the European Union. And instead of freeing British businesses from Brussels red tape, it proposes to wrap them up like mummies in layers of staggeringly complex bureaucracy, with two completely different tariff regimes operating side by side. And this, remember, is what the UK is asking for, not what it will get.

In real negotiations, as Davis knows from experience, things can only get worse: the role of the hated European Court of Justice will loom much larger and the opt-outs for future UK parliaments will disappear. If a deal is to be done at all, the last vestiges of fantasy Brexit will have to be stripped away and what will be left is a state that has negotiated its way from full partnership to the status of a rule-taking satellite of the EU.

Has any country ever gone into international treaty negotiations hoping to emerge with a status greatly inferior to the one it already enjoys?
When you take away all the heroic elements of Brexit, all the epic thrills of throwing off the oppressor and beginning a new history, what you are left with is just this – a country that has gone to enormous trouble to humiliate itself. Brexit has reached the point where the best possible outcome is the worst of both worlds, a state that is neither in nor out, neither on its own nor part of something larger.

This is what all the patriotic bombast has brought Britain to: a humble request that the EU play nice and grant it a subordinate status. Imagine that at some point in the past, the EU had actually offered this to the British. How dare they!

National humiliation
Can there be the slightest doubt that the British would have been up in arms, demanding nothing less than full EU membership? Has any country ever gone into international treaty negotiations hoping to emerge with a status greatly inferior to the one it already enjoys? What do we want? National humiliation. When do we want it? Now.

Davis and Johnson know this is the reality they helped to create. They hadn’t the stomach either to face it or to publish a credible alternative. That is because the only alternatives to a mortifying Brexit are stark. One is to be honest and admit that the whole project has already failed and must be stopped before it is too late. The other is to stick your head back in the Nutella jar. If May goes, there may be no one left to pull the poor possums out.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 12:02 PM BST
^^Another piece of less than easy to read tripe from the cut and paste kid, where Fintan O'Toole comes across as little more than a windbag.

While tony's link seems worth the effort in reading.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 12:22 PM BST
The establishment has fought back to keep us under control of the failing EU.

The fact that the Department of Exiting the EU was not even told anything about May's plans before Chequers tells you all you need to know about May.

It appears possible Merkel knew about her plans before the British Cabinet and before the Department of Exiting the EU as well.

She is a control freak and works with civil servants only.

She run the election without the rest of the Tories and failed miserably. She U-turned on social care when she realised her civil servants had got that idea badly wrong.

Lets hope she realises her mistake this time and does another U-Turn.

This is appears to be the only person she listens to on Brexit and the person who spends the most time in Brussels doing 'talks'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/people/oliver-robbins
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 12:38 PM BST
I see Lord Digby Jones was moaning about the "establishment" yesterday



Amazing how many peers, ex-public schoolboys, city milers, MPs, Oxbridge students, tax dodgers, country home-dwelling, double-barrelled, nanny-brought up white men are so alienated by this establishment.


Thank god they're not part of it at all.
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 12:39 PM BST
glorious fantasies of imperial revival and layers of self-pity about imaginary oppression
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 12:55 PM BST
May is as poor a Tory PM as we're ever likely to see.
Her handling of the last election was testimony to that.
Yet had she projected a tough negotiating stance with Brexit, the election mess would have been forgiven by the leavers.
And even now we could still crash out without a deal under May if the EU stick to their guns which I'm sure they will. 
It just depends how much more ground May is prepared to concede further down the line. 
But I don't think she's go the guts to concede much more, and go down as the PM who betrayed the British public.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 1:01 PM BST
PorcupineorPineapple
10 Jul 18 12:38
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 5,383 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
I see Lord Digby Jones was moaning about the "establishment" yesterday



Amazing how many peers, ex-public schoolboys, city milers, MPs, Oxbridge students, tax dodgers, country home-dwelling, double-barrelled, nanny-brought up white men are so alienated by this establishment.

^

They are the ones that the establishment let speak.

The majority of people who had never voted before, did not get indoctrinated at pro-EU universities, and those on lower incomes voted for Brexit. But those people have no voice in the main stream media.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 1:24 PM BST
So this all-powerful "establishment" simply allows others to speak, to conspire with foreign countries to manipulate voters against the wishes of this self-same "establishment"? It allows other members to hold completely differing views and to reach serious levels of office and influence even if they are actively opposing this "establishment's" wishes? It actively is campaigning to keep us within an organisation that has done more than any tory government to re-distribute wealth and is working on laws to close down tax evasion loopholes while those opposing it are calling for Britain to be a low-tax, low-regulation haven, much like where Mr Banks and Farage currently are to be found?


That the same establishment yeah?
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 1:32 PM BST
I can't see much truth in that from PP.

Although the establishment set out, is actively is campaigning to keep us within the EU.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 1:34 PM BST
If the EU is working to close tax loopholes they're taking their time.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 1:35 PM BST
I think you are confusing an underlying 'establishment' or 'bubble' with some sort of highly controlled system.

It is much looser than that.

For instance every university is clearly pro-EU. Why is this? It is because for decades all departments have integrated with the EU. They apply for grants from the EU departments for research. They rightly fear a change from that. This rubs off from lecturers and tutors to the students. The students also mix with the brightest and best EU citizens who research and study there. Graduates are not exposed to low skilled low paid migrants and the population crisis. They see positives.

Top jobs are taken by graduates in big business, media and politics. These people have all come through this pro-EU experience at Univerisities. None of these people in power have ever seen the negatives.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 1:36 PM BST
More like working to impose extra taxes on the UK so more investment will go to the rest of the EU.
I wouldn't be surprised at that.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 1:37 PM BST
Very well explained by IT, last post.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 1:37 PM BST
So by "establishment" you mean "universities".


Sorry, I had a different definition in mind. Was a different time I had in Salford Establishment.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 1:38 PM BST
So by "establishment" you mean "universities".

He didn't write that, look again.
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 2:19 PM BST
For instance every university is clearly pro-EU. Why is this? It is because for decades all departments have integrated with the EU. They apply for grants from the EU departments for research. They rightly fear a change from that. This rubs off from lecturers and tutors to the students. The students also mix with the brightest and best EU citizens who research and study there. Graduates are not exposed to low skilled low paid migrants and the population crisis. They see positives.

Top jobs are taken by graduates in big business, media and politics. These people have all come through this pro-EU experience at Univerisities. None of these people in power have ever seen the negatives.


Educated people do not fear immigration, they are more likely to embrace opportunities.  Free movement has two sides - we only ever get one talked about ("them" coming here), but we can also go there. We (educated successful people) also want our country to be part of the world, not standing off to one side afraid of it.  This is the same the world over - people want education for their children because of the opportunities it brings.

He's right - Universities are hotbeds of pro-EU radicalism; it's because that's where you go to get educated.

Remain uneducated and you're vulnerable to half-baked but easy sounding theories peddled by people who are not acting in your best interests.
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 2:21 PM BST
uneducated people are prone to believing glorious fantasies of imperial revival and layers of self-pity about imaginary oppression

(love this description, will be using it all week)

Happy
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 2:37 PM BST
PP i do find you sometimes very dismissive of facts you do not like..IT is correct,universities are all pro eu because of the money they recive in grants and how they work with universities in europe..so his point is valid..our argument is not against cooperation with the eu and universities..its just the money the british universities receive is only OUR own money given back in a targeted way? so they cannot be seen as a honest broker...he does make very good points about most who work in universities...although i know a few who voted leave..
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 2:47 PM BST
bigbop...
..i know many EDUCATED..people who are anti eu..anti immigration..and many of us are anti uncontrolled immigration..because WE LIVE IT..ffs..many people who are educated do wrong things..look at the tories they all had the best education? education in life is just as good as any other..i want my kids to go to university..good enough my daughter is gifted in this way and will go (if she wishes) but kids today just need to know the net..and the world is there oyster...

and for the last time...FOM is not for everyone..lets see you have 10 bulgarians next door in a 2 up 2 down..cutting your wages and see how you like it then try to get a doctors appointment..the politcal class in our country have betrayed us...we gave them a kick up the back side..and they betrayed us again...i personally have always said...you can never trust a tory...i hope theres a election soon..the eu are worried about corbyn...i hope they are right
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 2:54 PM BST
hey, being anti-EU doesn't necessarily make you a Brexiteer.  Everything you say about the EU could be true and leaving could still be a foolish idea (particularly with no plan).  But there you go - educated people are taught to question things.
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 3:24 PM BST
People are only taught to question things which are out of line with the consensus.
They readily accept the narrative if presented by people they regard as credible.

Educated or non-educated, one is no more likely to be led up the garden path than the other once a bit of experience is gained.
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 3:52 PM BST
People are only taught to question things which are out of line with the consensus.
They readily accept the narrative if presented by people they regard as credible.


this is not true.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 4:04 PM BST
Right, ok then, I was talking about the Establishment, not universities. It started as a relatively light-hearted dig. Someone please tell me which of Lord Digby Jones, Aaron Banks, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson etc etc et bloody cetera are not actually part of this establishment? Farage was on Fox News earlier moaning about the establishment while sitting in a tax haven. Seriously, who still falls for this sh!t? They are not us. Never have been, never will be.

But apparently students are the establishment now.



As for the rest, can I have some examples of pro-EU university doctrine that's attributable to them getting backhanders from the EU? Bigpop was fairly dismissive but he's essentially right. One of the main points of going to uni is to open your eyes, experience more (that old diversity angle) and learn to think critically and debate issues. The idea they're "not exposed to low skilled low paid migrants and the population crisis" is absolute hogwash that is barely worth debating. Have a quick look at where the majority of private student rentals are, look at the kind of part time jobs they do, look at their backgrounds which apparently they entirely forget the moment they enter a campus.

So, no. Rubbish I'm afraid. Unis aren't some mind-bending institutions directly aimed at making everyone who leaves a leftie. What they do actually do is make people better at being independent and thinking for themselves and not falling for stereotypes and easy solutions to complex problems. It allows young people to spend time and develop relationships with people from the other end of the country, from across Europe and from around the world.


But apparently these unis are pumping out lefties who are taking top jobs in business, media and politics. Which is why the media is so completely left wing with no trace at all of right wing or anti-EU sentiment, why politics has been dominated by the left since unis started this indoctrination and why big businesses have all but given up greed, bonuses and fat cats and are now Socialist entities were pay disparity has reduced dramatically.

I mean, that's what's been happening the last few decades hasn't it?
Report Dr Crippen July 10, 2018 4:14 PM BST
Unis aren't some mind-bending institutions directly aimed at making everyone who leaves a leftie.

Yet the fact remains that the young are very likely to lean to the left politically during and just after leaving college.
Then as they gain experience of life as they get older, they start adopting right-wing views.

This is generally accepted as true.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 4:17 PM BST
I don't disagree with that doc. But you're talking about correlation, not causation.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 4:29 PM BST
Two people:

1. Goes to University. Gets a degree and mixes with the brightest and the best from other EU countries. Might be tutored by a bright lecturer from another EU country. He might then do some research funded by an EU grant. After that he works for a big company that trades goods into the EU. The rulebook helps his big company keep its competitive advantage against smaller nimble UK firms. He has a big mortgage and fears short term problems if we leave. He has a nanny from the EU. When he goes to corporate events all the staff serving him are from the EU. Of course he will want the status quo that benefits him. Who can blame him?

2. Someone who did not go to university. Has his own small business in welding or plumbing. Earned a good living in the 1990s. Employed a few people. Using the NHS and kids are at the local school. Does not take long to drive about his home town as trafic light. Has no contact with other EU citizens except on holiday. Then in the 2005 onwards people come from eastern europe. To start with he get on with them. Even employs one. Then more and more come. The market for plumbers or welders or whatever is flooded and what he can charge has been stuck for 15 years. His kids cannot get into the local schools. The roads are gridlocked. He cannot get a GP appointment. His friend is on hard times but cannot get a council house. How can you blame him for not wanting to be in the EU? It has brought him only negatives.

Person 1 is part of the establishment. He likes the status quo because it suits him. Person 2 is not part of the establishment. Person 1 will have more family in friends in a position to influence policy. More of the right connections.
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 4:32 PM BST
IT ..you have posted what is happening everywere bar london...but its not the educated that are the problem..its the politcal class...
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 4:41 PM BST
Holy sh!t, that's just beyond stupid.



Firstly, your cartoonish descriptions of two people as if they're supposed to represent something! They don't, they're just two little stereotypes that utterly coincidentally reinforce your prejudices

The staff at events serving him are European. Therefore, he's for the status quo!!! Good grief man. It's Grade A Paranoia now. Your hero can't get across town, never mind get his kid into schools or the GP!!!
(Little aside - my daughter's not well right now. Picked her up from the neighbour at 4.45, called the GP 5 minutes later, was told to bring her up, and was seen and sent off with a prescription 30 minutes later. I know it's not always the case but I feel it's only right to point out that the system hasn't gone completely to pot despite us being OVERRUN!!!)


Secondly, person one is not part of the establishment. I suspect the problem we're having here is that you actually have no clue what it is and are just confusing it with middle class people.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 4:42 PM BST
I see it in places like Cambridge, Oxford, Brighton etc as well as London. People doing well generally have no comprehension that there is any bad in mass immigration and having to follow the rules. They do not want to risk making EU trade harder for the possibility of trade deals with the USA.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 4:46 PM BST
Liverpool got buckets of money from the EU and has a very low level of EU immigration. Like Scotland it has declined in size in recent decades. I can see why somewhere like that would wish to keep the status quo.

Hope your daughter gets well soon.
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 5:03 PM BST
liverpool has plenty of immigration....my main road now has 2 polish shops..plus another cafe belonging to east europeans..a new shop just opened in the shopping center for albanians...we have a cafe for people from brazil..2 shops on the road run by rumanians...dont tell me we dont have immigration mate...
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 5:22 PM BST
Liverpool is 86% white british compared to 82% is general in the UK.

Liverpool has only 60% of the population size now it had in the 1930s.

I am sure you see a few foreign born people around (11% are on last survey which is around 150 out of 400 areas in England).

My point is a declined population, less than average levels of immigration, a university and lots of EU money MIGHT explain why Liverpool is a remain area.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 5:40 PM BST
Liverpool has always had immigration.

It's overwhelmingly great. We're noted for being an outward looking city, rather seeing ourselves as Irish than English often.

One of the best shops in the city is the deli half way up Bold St that sells all kinds of stuff. Been there as long as I can remember. I'd imagine everyone's been there at least once.
Toxteth riots were predominantly about black people rebelling against the system but it was something we all rallied behind. We were as one in this generally. Same with the dockers' strikes and anything in between and since. We've looked after each other, not seen our mate as different because he looks or sounds that.

Right now there are more Eastern European shops but what's the problem? You might actually find something you like and maybe even help a decent family pay their bills. Would you rather see the shop empty?
Report bigpoppapump July 10, 2018 5:43 PM BST
IT has his own meaning for the word establishment.

hence, you are talking fundamentally different languages and are each doomed to having a frustrating exchange of ideas.

IT's definition (of Establishment) is revealing of his prejudices (I'd say ideas, but don't want to misuse that word Happy  ).

IT is a frustrated individual who cannot accept good faith views could be held which differ from his own.  He can only make ad hominem points and is most likely spending too much time on web sites which are not doing him any good.  His world view is closed and fundamentally not his own.  He parrots things he's read which appeal to him.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 10, 2018 6:39 PM BST
PP..right now there are more eastern european shops??? yes your right LOL..ffs they are everywere...none of you lot who love immigration have answers to these problems only


Again. Why is it a problem? Would you rather see the shop boarded up?
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 7:18 PM BST
As Tony says its too many low wage people coming in too quickly meaning stretching resources locally.

Would people like PP put any limit on immigration?
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 7:48 PM BST
if you noticed the last post i put up 3/4 of people asked said we are full....so i imagine the other 1/4 are lib dems who live in london who have cheap labour looking after there kids?

the point you make is a fair one..would i rather the shops were closed?..no..but if there are too many here it means there is strain elsewere..so shops being open makes no difference..and if you ask these people they tell you the money they make is sent home?..not spent here..but why would that matter to you..
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 7:52 PM BST
While Tory civil war rages, we in Labour should not look on with glee. 70% of our constituencies and 5 million of our voters supported Brexit- a proper Brexit. Most people now want us to get on with delivering it. We need to be ready to deliver a clean Brexit if the Tories fail.

26 replies 75 retweets 156 likes
Reply 26   Retweet 75   Like 156   Direct messagehttps://twitter.com/BrendanChiltonhttps://twitter.com/labourleave
Report tony57 July 10, 2018 7:54 PM BST
0 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
Reply   Retweeted 1   Like   Direct message
Labour Leave Retweeted

Ed Rennie


@edrennie77
2h2 hours ago
More
I think the EU will accept May's proposals, because they tie the UK to the EU in exactly the way the EU wants us tied to them
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 8:06 PM BST
tony57
10 Jul 18 19:52
Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 11,198 | Blogger: tony57's blog
While Tory civil war rages, we in Labour should not look on with glee. 70% of our constituencies and 5 million of our voters supported Brexit.

^

And the top the Labour leadership support Brexit behind closed doors.

The MP majority (of both parties) support remain. When over 70% of all constituencies support LEAVE.

Farage will be back to take on each and every leave  constituency when their MP voted to betray Brexit. Personally I would like him to contest the Broxtowe one next election if Brexit is not delivered.
Report InsiderTrader July 10, 2018 8:07 PM BST
I am guessing that the likes of Gove think lets just get out of the EU next March. Then whatever 'deal' is signed up to now can be changed at a later date. The key thing right now is to get out of the EU.
Report SontaranStratagem July 10, 2018 8:23 PM BST

Jul 10, 2018 -- 7:54PM, tony57 wrote:


0 replies 1 retweet 0 likesReply   Retweeted 1   Like   Direct message Labour Leave RetweetedEd Rennie‏ @edrennie77 2h2 hours agoMoreI think the EU will accept May's proposals, because they tie the UK to the EU in exactly the way the EU wants us tied to them


Yes. And people keep saying they want the ECJ and Human Rights kept, which they will be for anyone coming in from the EU countries, it will only effect anyone born here in the UK with the removal of the european courts and Human Rights.

They wont tell you this in the news though, they keep bringing up pointless thinks like trade deals etc.

Report tony57 July 11, 2018 7:57 AM BST
nonsense..human rights? we have the most freedom in this country than anywere..we had them before we joined,and we have them now..we will keep them if we leave..human rights..im amazed adults can claim such things? ECJ yes..the majority of the british people dont want a foriegn court letting terrorists or beasts stay in this country when a britsh judge has thrown them out...ourlaws are not behind any in the eu i can assure you..ive lived in the eu..give me britsh justice anyday..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 11, 2018 8:16 AM BST
and if you ask these people they tell you the money they make is sent home?.


Evidence please.
Report bigpoppapump July 11, 2018 9:09 AM BST
ECJ yes..the majority of the british people dont want a foriegn court letting terrorists or beasts stay in this country when a britsh judge has thrown them out...ourlaws are not behind any in the eu i can assure you..ive lived in the eu..give me britsh justice anyday..

and there's the reason a second referendum would have the same result.

people actually believe this sort of stuff.
Report Dr Crippen July 11, 2018 9:15 AM BST
so i imagine the other 1/4 are lib dems who live in london who have cheap labour looking after there kids?

Or immigrants themselves who want to see more of their own kind  coming here.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 11, 2018 11:40 AM BST
I know brexiters are accused of harking back to some bygone age but I didn't realise it was the late 40s.

Now we're being told the government is stockpiling tinned food.


Brexit means Rationing.


Catchy.
Report Dr Crippen July 11, 2018 12:27 PM BST
The bygone age most Britains hark back to is the one before this happened:

http://www.oann.com/report-white-brits-will-soon-be-minority-in-birmingham-u-k/
Report Dr Crippen July 11, 2018 12:28 PM BST
Before PP's lot started to take over.
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 12:32 PM BST
PP EVIDENCE?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017817/Poles-sending-home-3bn-year--pay-4-5m-week-benefits.html

https://www.ft.com/content/3b3f1bee-63bc-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa

FT..good enough ?
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 12:34 PM BST
bigbop..
you sound more like crippen....british justice is as good as any in the world..the justice system in europe has many problems i can assure you..
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 12:49 PM BST
the FT article is eye opening....they earn the money fair play..but the argument about the money and dont forget the benefits they recive going home is a big one...imo..what they do with wages is their priority..but benefits should not be going abroad..

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/europeans-can-carry-on-sending-benefits-to-families-back-home-after-brexit-klf6x8r86
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 5:18 PM BST
PP were are you?..evidence..?answer please..is that enough for you?
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 6:38 PM BST
ONS data: Between 2005 and 2014, 90% of additional households created in England were headed by a person who was born abroad. Increased pressure & demand for housing is seen as one of the main negative impacts of immigration, according to YouGov.Our brief: https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/housing …
Report tony57 July 12, 2018 6:52 PM BST
https://twitter.com/John_Mills_JML

The Government has given too much away. This is not the Brexit that people voted for. 1/7
Theresa May's red lines have turned pink. When she goes into the next round of talks with the EU, the UK may well be pressed to give even more ground. 2/7

2 replies 17 retweets 22 likes
Reply 2   Retweet 17   Like 22   Direct message

he UK economy has suffered from decades of under-investment and mismanagement. The £100 billion balance of payments deficit we have with the EU is symptomatic of the imbalances which plague the UK economy. 3/7

2 replies 13 retweets 17 likes
Reply 2   Retweet 13   Like 17   Direct message

Immigration has also played a role, diluting GDP per head in the country. 4/7



Brexit could have provided an opportunity to recast our economy, so it worked for everyone. It was an opportunity to design an economy that healed the divides in this country; the divides between North and South and the divides between the generations. 5/7

2 replies 13 retweets 24 likes
Reply 2   Retweet 13   Like 24   Direct message

I have long been an advocate for investment in heavy and light industry. That should have been part of the positive plan and vision for the UK post-Brexit. 6/7



Instead, Theresa May has approached Brexit through the lens of crisis mitigation rather than grabbing the opportunity to transform our country and economy with both hands. 7/7

a true labour hero...
Report InsiderTrader July 12, 2018 8:27 PM BST
tony57
12 Jul 18 17:18
Joined: 13 Oct 10
| Topic/replies: 11,212 | Blogger: tony57's blog
PP were are you?..evidence..?answer please..is that enough for you?


^

What PP does in situations where he is caught out is not respond directly. Then in a couple of months he will make the same false claims and ask for evidence. You will then provide the evidence again and he will not respond again. He has done this to me many times in regard to next negative effect of EU immigration to the UK.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 12, 2018 8:49 PM BST
tony - just checking. You claim you're a Labour voter (well...), are you advocating the government make a check on everyone receiving benefits and deciding how they can and can't spend that money?


Would you be happy if a 50-year old from Seaforth who has had to take early retirement was told what he could spend his money on and which members of his family or bills he could pay?


Would you want that to be part of the next Labour manifesto?
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 12, 2018 8:50 PM BST
sorry everyone, didn't realise i had you all on tenterhooks.


Was off doing something else if that's allowed.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 12, 2018 8:57 PM BST
Part B of above question

Would you be happy if said Seaforth benefit claimant moved to Spain, had his money transferred to his account there and spent it in Spain?
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 10:10 AM BST
you asked for evidence ..i gave it too you..you now ask me my opinion on benefits ..i said with eu nationals..i belive spending them should ltd to the uk economy...how british nationals spend there money anywere is there buisness?? the same way a polish person should spend there benefits were ever ..but when you are a foriegn national receiving state help rather than it being sent back to the home country to build homes..i think it should be spent in the country were they receive it? i realise this is not going to happen..its a opinion..


your problem is when you are shown up in your opinions you divert to another, ive gave you evidence that eu you nationals are sending billions back home that could stimulate the british economy
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 10:32 AM BST
So you agree that the government shouldn't be imposing on people how to spend their benefits. No eye in the sky saying not to buy cigarettes, lottery tickets or crisps. Presumably, that also includes buying things from China via ebay. They're free to do that aren't they?


Unless it's foreigners. If someone is foreign then there should be extra rules. Because they're foreign. Not British. Foreign. That is the one and only reason people should be restricted in how they spend their money. There's a word for that I reckon.

If they're foreign, they have to forget supporting family members. Just forget them. Help in buying food? Let them starve! Birthday presents? Send a whatsapp video! They're foreign, they should understand they deserve fewer rights than other people.


As for your last sentence, I appreciate you answered. I'm simply responding to a point you made. Not diverting, it's called debate.

FWIW, I spent several years working overseas and I continued to send money back. I supported my mum, I helped pay our mortgage as the rent wasn't covering it, I'd buy loads of stuff and get it sent to my mum's for her to bring over.

Are you saying that should no longer be allowed? Or is it ok if it's a Brit overseas rather than a foreigner here? Just wondering what kind of state controls you're looking to impose on how we spend our money.
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 7:44 PM BST
again..i know you like to divert..my point is IF ITS BENEFITS from the host country? so you say its ok for us to give billions away to people who just send it home to poorer countrys..if they are working ..good on them they can send that home...but why is it ok for billions to be given to eu countrys ..thats all your doing..it ends up in east european countrys?...so please dont divert away from my point...how many british ex pats are getting spanish benefits and sending it home PP?..I,LL TELL YOU..NOT FU.CN MANY..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 8:00 PM BST
So to confirm, you'd like the government to decree how people can and can't spend their benefits.

But only the foreign people.

If the Labour Party could see you now.
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 9:40 PM BST
yes they would be proud that i want the best for british tax payers..not giving away money, the sick the disabled the army all need? again how many brits would do this? ..you carnt answer cos you know its very little..yet we give billions to people to send to there own country?..i think if you asked the british people they would want it cut as much as possiable..
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 9:46 PM BST
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5948015/Englands-state-secondary-school-pupil-numbers-rise-400-000-2027.html

in other words, british kids will find it harder to get the school of the parents choice ...wonder if PP might get worried if he carnt get his kids in the school they want?
again we have too many people in this country...the eu will allow 500k migrants in this year all will be able to come to the uk and how will we be able to get them out?say 100k come? already 280k are coming every year..seems migrants are not as worried as remainers are about the economy after brexit?
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 9:58 PM BST
I can't answer because - thankfully - I don't live in a fascist state that records and controls how its citizens spends their money. That's why I can't answer.

You want to impose on people based on their passport alone. You want them to be less free, to have fewer rights than we enjoy.That's something I can answer. Probably got that idea from the Mail to be fair.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 9:59 PM BST
Question -  In your dream totalitarian state, just how would you stop foreigners spending money overseas? What would the mechanism be? How would you monitor their spending?
Report InsiderTrader July 13, 2018 10:00 PM BST
That article suggests non-British born women have higher fertility rates and this is leading the boom in numbers of kids needing school. First a Primary School crisis then Secondary in around 9 years time.

Of course people like PP will no doubt deny this.
Report moisok July 13, 2018 10:04 PM BST
do not bring up Bradford please
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 10:38 PM BST
Maybe we should sterilise them. Alternatively, maybe we should force our natives to breed more. Maybe some kind of punishment for childless women. Maybe get our fertile women into some kind of group and give them to our elite males to ensure we create a superior brand of human.

Under his eye.
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 10:54 PM BST
as you know well..i do not want to stop anyone being free..i want to stop my country being taken advantage of by people who dont have our living standards..i do not blame them...i blame the goverment and the eu..but i ask again ive proven billions leave our country to go to poland ..never mind the other countrys..(im not worried about eu nations who have our living standards)i dont think its right..i would stop the payments, why do we pay child tax credits to migrants? ive no problem with refugees..thats the right thing to do..but rumanians?bulgarians? do you think its right billions leave our country to build homes in these countrys pp?
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 11:02 PM BST
I'll repeat it.

How would you stop these people of lower living standards spending money outside of the UK?

What would the mechanism be? How would you identify how and where the money is spent and thus control it?
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 11:10 PM BST
i would either not give it to them or give it in food vouchers that can only be spent in this country..but answer the question, your ok with billions leaving the uk to build homes for eu nationals?
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 11:29 PM BST
Yes, I am absolutely fine with it.

I believe people should be able to spend their money how they please.

If they have a job they can invest in shares, give it to charity or blow it on booze and ****.

If the relevant authorities assess someone's circumstances and deem they are worthy of benefits then the same thing applies.


They are grown ups, and unless they have a problem and need assistance in making decisions then adults should be free to do as they please with their money once they've paid whatever dues they owe.


I couldn't care less if they are British, Polish or Indian. The same applies to everyone. I think it actually shows something about a person's character that he would still help his family out back home and sacrifice his own money for them. Definitely a plus point to someone's character to have a bit of kindness and to think of others rather than the selfishness we see in others.
Report tony57 July 13, 2018 11:37 PM BST
thats not my point as you well know..but you are open borders, and have no problems with tax payers money being used to build homes abroad? good for you...i find it sad...i will say again..i like to see you when you or your family struggle cos of the numbers in this country...
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 13, 2018 11:54 PM BST
Do you honestly think there are people here living on benefits who are doing so well out of it that they can afford to keep enough money to one side to build their own house?

Where do these people live? Legoland?

I mean, do you honestly believe that? I'm sure the Mail or Migrationwatch would like you to believe that but, taking a step back, do you still actually believe it?


As for my family, my wife is already one of these immigrants, maybe someone you'd sneer at for her "lower living standards". She's put up with all manner of racist abuse, both full on "f*ck off to your own country" type bile and the more gentle, everyday kind by so called friends and colleagues. So careful preaching about struggles right now. It's not great welcoming her home and wondering if she's going to be sobbing about the sh!t she's had to put up with.

If you want to blame someone for lack of school places then why not have a look at investment. Immigrants have been a real boon to this country. Why haven't we built enough schools to accommodate the predictable extra numbers, use the extra tax income and revenue generated to invest instead of doing the opposite? As usual, the answer is actual under our control but they'd rather you blame the foreign family at the end of the street instead. No wonder when so many fall for it so easily.
Report tony57 July 14, 2018 12:01 AM BST
what are you on about? im on about eu nationals you tool..who send billions abroad from money given them by the uk..

again ive no problem with immigration?ive a problem with uncontrolled immigration, and now i know why you are the way you are..if your mrs is french dutch irish spanish no one could give a toss..no one cares were anyone is from as long as its done right? not allowing white people from east europe to come in anytime..but pakistan or indians who died for us in the war have to jump through hoops..thats ****n racist mate...
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 14, 2018 12:12 AM BST
Do you believe that there are EU nationals here, living on benefits, who can afford to send enough money home to build a house? Really?

I mean, you must know some people on benefits. How plausible do you really think that is?




Regarding my mrs - is your opinion of her different if she's from Ireland or she's from Romania? Would she be somehow lesser, somehow more deserving of racial abuse if the latter? Also the comment about "white people", what's that about? Would she be better in your eyes if she was black or Indian?
Report tony57 July 14, 2018 12:17 AM BST
hang on ..you saw the proof how much money goes to these countrys they live on 150 a month? plus they are working ..and get working tax credits..if they cannot afford it whos sending the money ?
Report tony57 July 14, 2018 12:19 AM BST
the point is white europeans can enter the uk..while commonwealth countrys can not..thats racist policy..jesus you either dont read what ive posted or your very ignorant..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 14, 2018 12:30 AM BST
It's not proof. It's an article from a biased publication. It's not proof of anything.

Think for yourself for a second. Do you think someone living in the UK could survive on benefits and have enough left over to be able to afford to build a house? Do you honestly believe that?





We have a reciprocal arrangement with Europe. We can travel, live and work freely there and they can do the same here. What's racist about it? Plenty more reciprocal benefits outside of that too as it happens.


Anyway, back to your previous point - do you view my wife differently if you know she's Irish or if she's Romanian?
Report InsiderTrader July 14, 2018 3:01 AM BST
PorcupineorPineapple
13 Jul 18 23:54
Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 5,439 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
Do you honestly think there are people here living on benefits who are doing so well out of it that they can afford to keep enough money to one side to build their own house?

Where do these people live? Legoland?

I mean, do you honestly believe that? I'm sure the Mail or Migrationwatch would like you to believe that but, taking a step back, do you still actually believe it?


As for my family, my wife is already one of these immigrants, maybe someone you'd sneer at for her "lower living standards". She's put up with all manner of racist abuse, both full on "f*ck off to your own country" type bile and the more gentle, everyday kind by so called friends and colleagues. So careful preaching about struggles right now. It's not great welcoming her home and wondering if she's going to be sobbing about the sh!t she's had to put up with.

If you want to blame someone for lack of school places then why not have a look at investment. Immigrants have been a real boon to this country. Why haven't we built enough schools to accommodate the predictable extra numbers, use the extra tax income and revenue generated to invest instead of doing the opposite? As usual, the answer is actual under our control but they'd rather you blame the foreign family at the end of the street instead. No wonder when so many fall for it so easily.


^

I am sorry for your personal circumstances. But please do not allow that to cloud your judgement. Your statement that Immigrants have been a real boon to this country is false and you know it is false because we have been through the data on this time and time again.

1. They generally earn less than the amount that would be required if they were applying from outside the EU.
2. It is impossible to plan schools, doctors and so on if you have open borders so you have no idea how many people will be here.

We are all for the kind of immigrants that are a 'real boon to this country' but lets control the numbers so our public services can be planned for and lets take the ones in genuine needs from throughout the world and those who are the brightest and best. Lets get British people off the streets and so on before we open up to everyone.
Report InsiderTrader July 14, 2018 3:14 AM BST
* Just to be clear to be able to bring a non-EU spouse to the UK you have to earning at least £18,600 a year. 41% of the British working population earn below this.
Report InsiderTrader July 14, 2018 3:16 AM BST
If you have one or more non-EEA child it goes up to £22,400.

There is a clear bias in the system in favour of Europeans.
Report moisok July 14, 2018 4:07 PM BST
porky wants to fill up the country till it sinks beneath the waves and defends it for very selfish reasons
Report tony57 July 14, 2018 7:09 PM BST
it is proof..so the ft is biased against immigrants and posts lies..?

yes we have a agreement..but my point is and always has been..if the agreement is with countrys who have same standard of living thats one thing..but when you have it with coun trys that live on 200 a month..then they come here earn that a week and send money home to build homes and pay family....im sorry you are a very wrong and ignorant...you now dismiss truth cos its against your narrative..you dare attack others for doing that..

e.g poland average wage a month...425 euros...they get that in benefits here..so the job they get is win win for them..and you think my prove is wrong and not factual...#bulls.it
ttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/585860/Foreign-aid-British-Migrants-11bn-other-countries-year
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 14, 2018 7:33 PM BST
So, to confirm, you- a supposed Labour supporter - are in favour of benefit claimants being given food vouchers rather than actual money.

From what I guess, you would allow people freedom if they're Brits or even Irish or French. But not Romanian. Definitely not Romanian.

Doesn't matter on the person's circumstances or need. Doesn't matter if they've ever sent money back or not or if they've ever worked on the side, purely based on their race you'd happily discriminate against them.

Is that a fair summation of your posts in the last 24 hours?
Report tony57 July 14, 2018 8:31 PM BST
no not fair..ive explained the opinion..ive given articles to prove the point..you on the other hand base all your opinions on the fact you mrs is not british ? i couldnt care if she was from new zealand, the point i make is valad....british taxpayers are helping to pay for homes in poland or other such countrys..but the british are not doing the same...yet im meant to be made to feel that im being anti immigration...how dare i...
Report moisok July 14, 2018 9:12 PM BST
porky has other selfish interests which over rule what might be the interest of the whole of the population

you will find this is the case with many remainers

particularly the more senior(if I can call them that) ones
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 14, 2018 10:00 PM BST
Sorry.

But you did say you'd be in favour of some benefit claimants being either denied or paid in food vouchers. Thats a fact isn't it. I can give you the exact time.

And you did relate it to certain nationalities of lower living standards. Yes? You backed that up again with your line about average wage in Poland.

It's all there.

So I think you must agree my first paragraph is fair. You have said some people should be refused cash and paid in food vouchers.

And I think the second is fair too. You made a point about certain nationalities having a lower living standard and compared Ireland v France.

Again, it's all there.

I think the final one is fair too. You spoke of simply blocking people from certain countries receiving cash benefits. You didn't seek to differentiate between those caught sending huge sums over to build a house and those struggling to have a clean uniform for their kid.

Not sure which part of your opinion I've missed to be honest.
Report tony57 July 16, 2018 2:04 PM BST
you missed it all...my point is eu nationals who receive child benefit or tax credits should not be allowed to take it out of the country to build homes abroad..when we dont do it in there countrys..i said if they could be given food vouches or other vouchers to stop it then i would..only eu nationals ..cos of the point i made.....

as you well know my point is not aimed at poor british nationals or poor eu nationals..but those who have good jobs and still receive these benefits and do as ive said...you on the other hand would give away everything ...
]
the whole point of certain countrys have lower living standards is they come here to get better standards so i dont know why thats a problem for you when the evidence is in your face...
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2018 2:10 PM BST
So you are in favour of people being denied cash benefits but being paid in vouchers, solely on the basis of their nationality (if they're from a country with lower living standards) and if they're working.


Doesn't matter if they've never sent any money back, if they've never broken any laws, no matter how long they've been living here. You'd simply do it because they're from a poorer country.







You keep saying I've got it wrong, but you just keep repeating it over and over again.
Report tony57 July 16, 2018 2:16 PM BST
the reason ive said it..you miss that? how do you stop money leaving the country?
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2018 2:27 PM BST
So you're ok with British people spending money overseas.

You just don't want foreigners to enjoy the same rights.
Report tony57 July 16, 2018 2:32 PM BST
ive asked you plenty of times..show me were british people are claiming benefits in poland or other eastern eu countrys and sending it back to the uk?
Report tony57 July 16, 2018 2:33 PM BST
5billion a year...average..leaves uk..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2018 2:45 PM BST
I'm not talking about them overseas.


For example,

You have 30 year old Jenny from Bootle who works and gets child benefit. She is in a relationship with a new guy who's doing well so she's comparatively well off. So, she is now able to spend more. Her mum moved to Malaga a few years ago and is not rich so she sends some money to her every month to help her pay for bills, otherwise she'd never be able to afford flights back to see her grandchildren.

You also have Julja, also living in Bootle who also works and gets benefits. She is living with her husband and kids and isn't particularly well off. However, her mum back in Poland is also not well off so they send what they can afford back to her to help her pay bills and help her out after the sacrifices she made for her growing up.




So, just to confirm. You are fine with Jenny but want to forcibly stop Julja?
Report tony57 July 16, 2018 3:06 PM BST
if they work and earn their money how could i have a problem? as l,ong as its not the child benefit or tax credits that goes back ive no problem..but i ask you again what about the british abroad..we dont send money back to uk from poland?..you know why? cos we dont get it..but we give it out here while making our own beg?..you might be ok with that..im not..
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 16, 2018 3:49 PM BST
I don't care what they do with it. I've already told you. I don't care where they're from or in which country they're getting their benefits. It's a simple rule that is also universal.


If a person is assessed by the social and is told that they're due a certain number of benefits why should we determine how they should spend it? Should we be telling them they can't buy cigs? Surely that would be a good thing as it is a waste and would save money down the road. Should we look to cut down on childhood obesity and stop them spending too much on fatty foods? Again, there's a real benefit there? The savings to the UK economy could be huge. Why is one person allowed to help their mum pay the bills but the other person isn't? Because the other person's a foreigner? There's a word for that.


See, if you mentioned - just once - that it would depend on individual circumstances. If someone has been proven to be claiming benefits they don't deserve... But you're not interested in that you just want to penalise all Polish benefit claimants no matter how much they otherwise earn, what their circumstances etc? Not once have you even considered that. Just purely looking at their race, that's it. These people from lower living standards.
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