We will be in a customs union but it will be called a "variant" thus enabling us to tell the voters we are out of the EU and out of "The" customs union.


So the wining hand was up the sleeve. The rabbit will be pulled from a hat. With one bound Theresa the hero has solved all the problems.

A Customs Partnership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So no problem with the Mogg and the rest of his gang?

So the EU have given this their full approval? No devils amd no details?

And was that the bit of white paper Gove literally and phsically tore up t'other day

A pig with lipstick. It's what the civil service want, business as usual. They have been tying to soften us up with blatant media bias over the past two years. Does May think the electorate won't notice? She would be opening the door again to UKIP and possibly much worse. It would also undermine any remaining trust in politicians and the failing democratic process.

*trying

A pig with lipstick. It's what the civil service want, business as usual.

Bullseye Foin.


I find it weird that I am more in agreement with you than almost anyone on here.

Yet we our standpoints are opposite.

Don't you see that its not up to me and thee what happens. You can  (as they say on youtube) "Destroy" me. But the powerful will do what they have decided to do. And they certainly know exactly what it is. Its far too late in the day to think they are not organised. The disorganised  clowns in parliament are the side show smoke screen.

The mind numbing boring pantomime that is repeating itself  has a function. Its to anaesthetize, repel and drug the public to sleep. Eventually they will have no idea what's going on and will not care. See Danny Dyer half a million hits in 2 days...…….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W77154J0-w

I think you will agree that the 2022 election will be hilarious and farcical. Will Farage get involved?

Of course I hope labour knows what its doing with its "Let the Tories hang themselves" game. It had better know when its going to make its move and it had better have a move to make and it had better be unified. I am not holding my breath.

Melv do you support Corbyn and McDonnells Marxism and the corporate/banker run EU that forces austerity on Southern Europe? How do you square that circle?

I think we both know that the EU is run by the elites for the benefit of the elites. Politics is the staged pantomime to front the show.
Why then would you think that Corbyn could significantly change things for the better? He will be allowed a little leeway but go too far and we end up like Greece. It was a clear warning to us all, to show who is ultimately in charge.

Good morning IT, my comment was to Melv.

Melv do you support Corbyn and McDonnells Marxism and the corporate/banker run EU that forces austerity on Southern Europe? How do you square that circle?

Melv do you support Corbyn and McDonnells Marxism and the corporate/banker run EU that forces austerity on Southern Europe? How do you square that circle?

Who-ever voted for Corbyn for "reasons of balance" or summat where nearly as mistaken as Cameron with his Brexit referendumm. But it sure as hll shook things up a lot. Corbyn and Mcdonell have no more chance of changing the world than any other politicians. Jez is dim but I have hoped that McDonnell understood the likes of Varoufakis and Paul Mason. Not so sure now.


I am a fan of Sir Keir Starmer for purely pragmatic reasons. He is the most competent leadership candidate in any of the parties.

We are not having a revolution Paul Mason states that clearly every chance he gets. The coming technological, digital and A.I changes  cannot be stopped and climate change is a threat to us all including the plutocrats. Nowt wrong with working together for everyone's benefit. Capitalism does not need small nation states. Note the UNITED STATES of America.Also Varoufakis, Mason and others like Steve Keen have an awareness of issues related to debt that few others show. Capitalism needs fixing and I do not see why everyone cannot work together on that. Sorting Europe out is good practice for uniting the world. A unified world is the only way Human kind can realise its potential. The alternative is stagnation and possible disaster or even reverse evolution into tin pot warring fascist nation states.

I see that JRM has written an article for the Torygraph this morning urging May to respect her previous statements. I can't read it all as I'm not a subscriber but he mentions the "policy of a former SDP member".
He must be referring to David Owen who, in his book written before the referendum "Vote Leave" (I think it's called), recommended the EEA Norway option.

Three key things are essential for Brexit:

1. End of ECJ telling us what to do.
2. End of free movement of people from the EU.
3. Be able to do trade deals with whoever we like.

If the Tories up on those principals then Brexit was a waste of time because we will still be controlled by the unelected EU.

It will lead to rise of nationalism like never before in the UK as time will be limited.

1. End of ECJ telling us what to do.


There is talk of a parallel court. But for a "customs partnership" we have follow the same rules and regs and some-one has to enforce them.

2. End of free movement of people from the EU.  Some say there never was free movement we just could not aaassed to enforce it. Also it seems freedom of movement is about to be further restricted due to out cry all over movement

3. Be able to do trade deals with whoever we like. The EU has better deals than we are ever going to get on our own. Good luck with going cap in hand to Donald Trump. He loves a weak opponent in a deal.

Also it seems freedom of movement is about to be further restricted due to out cry all over Europe.

2. End of free movement of people from the EU.  Some say there never was free movement we just could not aaassed to enforce it. Also it seems freedom of movement is about to be further restricted due to out cry all over movement

If someone from the EU comes here with their family and gets a low paid job in the UK within 6 weeks of coming here how can the UK government currently send them home? Please explain the process.

And also explain, why would you want to?

Let's just kick out foreigners simply because they're foreign. That's what I voted for!

That is a different question PP.

I was responding to the commonly pushed out garbage by some remainers that we always could stop freedom of movement. Hence my direct question.

How do we expel EU citizens and their families from the UK if they get a low paid job within 6 weeks of arriving?

Let's just kick out foreigners simply because they're foreign. That's what I voted for!


Yep. And I cannot believe my eyes when I see people saying that most people did not vote out over immigration. I'm just agog aghast and gobsmacked. Well......say what you want it can't be proved one way or another. I just think immigration is massive needs to be taken seriously and needs to be managed better.

But but but but we need immgration its good for us all. And all this "throw em in a paddy wagon" is shameful and scary and pointing in a very nasty and dangerous direction.

Seems to be a concerted effort going on to marginalise Plumby-Plums.

The issue about immigration would never have occurred if our government had implemented a system of managed immigration instead of an open door.

So neither of you can explain the process for expelling EU citizens and their families from the UK if they get a low paid job within 6 weeks of arriving.

If cannot explain then the process then we do not currently have control over EU immigration.

Immigration is everything for these people imo. They dress it up so as not to look like babbling racists (not all are by any means) but I'm pretty certain immigration is at the heart of it all.



Yay, let's make our own trade deals when every last bit of evidence points to those deals being far worse than what we currently get. Still, let's make them as long as we can stop foreigners getting in.

Let's stop the ECJ making our rules. Which rules is it you dislike? Err, just do it will ya! And make sure you stop foreigners getting in while you're at it.

PP, If agree we cannot control EU immigration then we can move onto your 'why would we want to' trick question.

The issue about immigration would never have occurred if our government had implemented a system of managed immigration instead of an open door.

You mean the Blair thing when we were miles more open than any other EU country. Twill be the subject of Phd's and history books for generations.


But we are here now and tighter controls are being cried out for all over the EU.


I also want the EU to act as one to bring more humanity to the refugee crisis. Too any people dying.

Nice sentiments melv but ultimately naïve and self defeating. The racism accusation has been used too much to stifle debate about the matter and that has offended whole swathes of the electorate who are reacting to that.

My reasons for voting leave were:
1) increasing centralisation of power in Brussels with QMV replacing national vetoes
2) Being tied economically to the eurozone using a currency badly in need of reform but won't be as long as it suits Germany.
3) Having to make huge net payments even though we have a negative trade balance with the rest of the EU.

We can make better trade deals than the EU as they will take into account our needs rather than those of France and Germany.
Huge external tariffs protect French Agriculture. We pay for it through higher prices in the shops.Trump's objections are mainly towards unfair competition as he sees it from Germany but all EU countries pay the costs of his retaliation.

CAP ensures UK Agriculture is also protected

not that I think it should - but it does. 

For the sake of balance; if you're for the little guy getting cheap food, then you shouldn't pretend Brits pay high prices because "the French" are protected when it's not only the French who are protected.  It's also rich UK landowners.

Yes, it is also rich UK landowners, which is why they want to remain.
The government did promise to look at compensation for farmers when no longer beneficiaries of CAP payments. It's recycled money anyway at the moment.

so, do huge external tarrifs (your words) protect French agriculture alone?

or does the Eu protect EU agriculture?

I said "Huge external tariffs protect French Agriculture"
I did not say Huge external tariffs protect French Agriculture alone. Do pay attention.

so funny the unintended irony:  Brexiteers bleat about being labelled as xenophobes and then cannot make a perfectly reasonable point about EU economics without painting their picture using nationalist terms.

The UK Agriculture industry is protected by the EU, just like the French, but a Brexiteer cannot bring himself to acknowledge he was making an unfairly narrow description of who the EU protects because he was playing the nationalist, them and us card.

English nationalist playing at economic analysis.

Huge external tariffs protect French Agriculture. We pay for it through higher prices in the shops.

Huge external tarrifs protect French and UK agriculture.

French and UK citizens pay for it through higher prices in the shops.


Got to watch this lot - they're slippery and will try to rephrase the truth to their own agenda.

We can make better trade deals than the EU as they will take into account our needs rather than those of France and Germany.

this is another example - ignoring the realities of unit size (65m UK market size versus 500m EU market size) our nationalist forumite makes his weak as pi55 argument using the idea that "our needs" (on a trade deal) are somehow radically different from those of France and Germany.  Accepting the economies of the three nations mentioned have certain differences in balance between various sectors, it's hard to see what's uniquely important about an agriculture/food import for the UK versus the requirements of people who live in France or Germany. 

Lightweight, zero resistance to critical analysis but if you fling in the subtext of us and them you might slide it through.

Lol.  I guess you get lazy if your audience is a bunch of like-minded xenophobes.

Twisting my words in such a transparent way gets you nowhere.
My statement is true, or do you dispute that?

I haven't twisted your words at all.  I've quoted you directly and highlighted what you're trying to do.

What you said:  Huge external tariffs protect French Agriculture. We pay for it through higher prices in the shops.

The whole picture:  Huge external tarrifs protect French and UK agriculture.  French and UK citizens pay for it through higher prices in the shops.

My statement is true, or do you dispute that?

It's dishonest by omission.

in that you're making half a point to appeal to nationlism of people who wont spot that you're omitting the rest of the picture.

clever enough to win a referendum to be fair, but we are beyond that now.  Pretty soon your weak pi55 is going to have to stand up to reality.

Britain is subsidising French agriculture so of course it has to be considered on an individual country basis

think you have misunderstood the point bp, again

When you have done nit-picking perhaps you could tell me if you agree or not with the three points I mentioned,
yes or no.

here's your audience - which is why you probably don't even realise your arguments are not whole.  while people like lfc will cheer you on, you'll keep thinking you've got a point.

When you have done nit-picking perhaps you could tell me if you agree or not with the three points I mentioned,
yes or no.

you've entirely omitted that the UK Agriculture has been subsidised by higher prices in other EU countries (to the UK).

yes or no?

It’s quite a simple thing to understand , French agriculture and German for that matter is subsidised by Britain
When we leave the EU that will no longer be the case

I do have a point as does lfc.

Have a go at these.

My reasons for voting leave were:
1) increasing centralisation of power in Brussels with QMV replacing national vetoes
2) Being tied economically to the eurozone using a currency badly in need of reform but won't be as long as it suits Germany.
3) Having to make huge net payments even though we have a negative trade balance with the rest of the EU.

you want to slide your dishonest omissions through and then wont defend them.  disagreement with xenophobic sentiment is nit-picking.

I would be in favour of Britain imposing its own tariffs to protect British agriculture post Brexit
France and Germany and the rest can do what they want

Any problem with that bp ?

so you'd like our food prices to remain high?  to protect agriculture.

we should send lfc to broker some of these future deals we are going to make.

I’m not worried about food prices in Britain, we won’t starve

We might when immigration’s been cut and there’s no-one to work in the fields and packhouses.

well foinavon disagrees with you - thinks cheaper food is a benefit of leaving the EU.  Hard to understand what you think the benefit of continued high prices would be.  Care to expand?

if we have full employment then that is not a problem , we can allow farmers to recruit from anywhere in the world ( withtariffs they will be able to pay good wages )

I didn’t say good would be dearer in Britain bp , it might be cheaper

So potentially more immigration, not less?

There is never any problem in Britain attracting people who want to work here
So I think cyclops can forget about that fear

No potentially no immigration, or some if needed
What’s wrong with that ?

If you wish to expand on my statements that's fine, name calling does you no credit. People can draw their own conclusions.
I think cheaper food will help the less well off in society which I think is a good thing. It will not make much difference to the better off who spend a smaller part of their income on essentials.

Its a good thing of course as Foinavon says if the price of food is reasonable for everyone
That is likely to be the case in Britain regardless of anything else
There are no poor people in Britain

Lfc, not a fear, just an observation.
Immigration being high on most people’s reasons why they voted out, it would seem strange if it continued along very similar lines after exit.
What’s it all about, Alfie?

Rather than impose tariffs, I would prefer to see agricultural subsidies continue and be distributed in the most effective way to sustain food production and the rural environment.

Alot of strange stuff on this thread from remainers.

Before 1997 when net immigration was between 0 and 20k the food was always packed and the fruit picked.

look it’s like this , no one should be coming to Britain to get a free house in London and to live off benefits
If they are coming here they will have to have a job to come to

You see I know cyclops and others like to pretend that are worried for our farms
Well we have had millions of immigrants over the last few years and millions have never worked in a farm
So concentrate on that

Indeed we have. Construction, hospitality and the NHS to name but three areas have been hugely reliant on immigration.
But many fruit growers are already either scaling back or even moving their operations abroad.

With full employment and a rapidly ageing population does anyone truly believe immigration levels should be or will be significantly reduced?

Another one of the supporters of remain on here mentioned AI.

This means less not more need for workers.

If we do not keep growing the population by hundreds of thousands a year surely we will need a smaller NHS, less construction etc.

London is now a white minority city. So is Birmingham.

Wondering what the point of that final sentence was.

Final 2, sorry.

My reasons for voting leave were:
1) increasing centralisation of power in Brussels with QMV replacing national vetoes
2) Being tied economically to the eurozone using a currency badly in need of reform but won't be as long as it suits Germany.
3) Having to make huge net payments even though we have a negative trade balance with the rest of the EU.

The above is what remain voted for.

Jul 2, 2018 -- 12:26AM, melv wrote:

We will be in a customs union but it will be called a "variant" thus enabling us to tell the voters we are out of the EU and out of "The" customs union. So the wining hand was up the sleeve. The rabbit will be pulled from a hat. With one bound Theresa the hero has solved all the problems.A Customs Partnership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So no problem with the Mogg and the rest of his gang?So the EU have given this their full approval? No devils amd no details?And was that the bit of white paper Gove literally and phsically tore up t'other day

They only want the removal of the human rights act, once that goes they can go full steam ahead with their Universal Credit stuff, and no human right act means they can send in the military to any civil disobedience

Been done up like a thanks giving turkey, hence the sudden pro brexit protest marches down London, which will be stubbed out with the vanishing human rights act

The time to hit the streets was the morning AFTER the leave result, when the media started pushing out rubbish about needing negotiations, people didn't see the sign then though, there was no need for negotiations as you voted to leave. they used deception tactics for almost 3 months, going on about needing to re negotiate their part in the EU, it was blatantly obvious then there was no brexit

Morning after the leave vote

BBC: Will it be a soft or hard brexit?



Should have been walking on downing street right there and then

will the labour party do away with human rights in Britain?

nothing has been decided yet and in the end the referendum result will be binding

politicians are unable to get around that really, no matter how they might wish to

more misguided comments made from the perspective that the referendum was a symmetrical debate about the EU.  ie: decide if it's "good or bad" and vote accordingly.

for the final time we were (still are) in the EU and the referendum was about whether to Remain or to Leave and this is an entirely different question from Good/Bad. 

You could think the EU is bad and want to Remain (for example).  Less likely, but possible, would be to think it was Good and want to leave.

Leavers who hate being told "what they are" or why they voted for something, are perfectly happy to tell the other side what they voted for.  Same old, same old.

Ah no, leavers are not interested in what the other side voted for , they lost

we are all in the same boat so we all win or we all lose.

well that may be right in theory, not in practice of course
you voted for your own selfish reasons just like everyone else

You see some will do better , others won’t
It’s a question of judgement

here's another character happy to state how everyone else thinks

not at all bp that was you , I don’t care

It doesn’t matter what remainers think , they lost

Does that seem harsh ,  What if they had won ?

Oh dear, Mr Picky is not pleased that some of the "advantages" of remaining in the EU have been highlighted.
How strange. Here they are again.

1) increasing centralisation of power in Brussels with QMV replacing national vetoes
2) Being tied economically to the eurozone using a currency badly in need of reform but won't be as long as it suits Germany.
3) Having to make huge net payments even though we have a negative trade balance with the rest of the EU.

Judging by how animated he became at the mention of an individual member state rather than the collective, he would appear to support item 1 and the eventual goal of a European Superstate. Bring it on! Oh sorry, we are leaving, how inconvenient.

Again: I could agree with all that and still vote to Remain.

anybody - after listing what's good/bad about the Eu for them still has to address the actual question (Remain or Leave). 

The Remain/Leave question is a judgement about risk/impact/disruption or even improvement.  Nobody made their judgement on this question based on facts because the future is unknown; people made their judgement based on which story or stories they attached themselves to (or actively disliked so much they voted against the other story).

Sorry you think this is picky, but you misunderstand the nature of the referendum.  It's not unreasonable - both campaigns followed this approach (and it suited Leave for this to be the case).

I think you are missing the point , it doesn’t matter how or why remainers voted to remain
If they are if the same viewpoint as Foinavon then they should have voted leave , imo

But it doesn’t matter

Judging by how animated he became at the mention of an individual member state rather than the collective, he would appear to support item 1 and the eventual goal of a European Superstate. Bring it on! Oh sorry, we are leaving, how inconvenient.

here you go again - create a proposition you say the other side supports as something to attack.  Why approach debate like this?  You think it will slide through?  You're preaching to the numb-heads who will also go for the ad hominem nonsense.

There bp is being rude again

That’s not a good way to approach any debate , the remainers are like that
very rude

As I said a week ago.   



You know absolutely nothing. Ever.

Of course not. I'm not claiming to be psychic. I am just repeating what has  been said by people like Keir Starmer for at least six months. The difference is all will be revealed next Friday.



You know absolutely nothing

Neither does anyone else and it will be up to ten years before you fully find out what Brexit means . If then.  We will find out for a start..though…. if it involves.... "end-of-free-movement-but-customs-union-by-other-name-".....on Friday next. Jaysus its taken 2 years to hear what was obvious from the start.



Why oh why oh why Why oh why oh whyWhy oh why oh why. Has it taken these geniuses 2 years to come up with this, And Why oh why oh why Doesanyone think that the EU are going to have it. You do know that ;according to the EU;  we have to be worse off outside the EU to stop everyone else from demanding the same cake and eat eat deal and destryong the the EU. Do you realsie that this would mean asking the EU to commot suicide for our benefit.

Hugely disappointing but hardly surprising. May,most of the Cabinet and all the advisors are Remainers. They see Brexit as a problem to be managed rather than an opportunity to be grasped.

Remainers made the point before the Referendum that being outside the EU but bound by its rules was a bad position to be in. That was a perfectly valid point then and continues to be now. We voted , in the greatest democratic exercise this country has undertaken, to withdraw. Having done so the best Brexit surely has to be a clean Brexit.


To think that a Conservative Government has hitched itself to the rules of an organisation that believes in the"big" government model is baffling.


There are some suggestions tonight that Cabinet Brexiteers are relying on the EU rejecting the offer. That's pretty high stakes poker.


All in all a shameful day.

the EU wont reject it just push treason may into a few more concessions ,which now she,s come this far she,ll meekily bend over

If they go through with this  and if there is also a fudge on immigration and free movement of people it is the greatest act of treason ever committed in Britain and parliament will have no legal or moral right to govern , or pass laws , or collect  tax etc over anyone living in Britain , the people in parliament will be criminals who should spend the rest of their lives in a British prison

"Hugely disappointing but hardly surprising. May,most of the Cabinet and all the advisors are Remainers. They see Brexit as a problem to be managed rather than an opportunity to be grasped."

"The EU wont reject it just push Treason May into a few more concessions ,which now she,s come this far she,ll meekily bend over."


Nicely put Kublai and First Timer. Isn't it refreshing to see that the truth is clear simple and fantasy free.

Maybot Treason May .

As David Davis resigns saying we have already given too much away.

As Gove admits that we are probably going to make more concessions.

As The Tories move ever closer to Sir Keir Starmers long held well thought out crystal clear plan.

As more and more leavers are saying; all the above plans leave us worse off than if we stay in the EU.


Isn't about time we had a referendum on the governments description of the Brexit that Brexit means. The binary choice..... accept the governments idea of Brexit or stay precisely where we are..... IN THE EU.

Closely followed by a general election with Sir Keir Starmer as Labours offering for PM.

What is the referendum choice?

A. Accept the Chequers deal after the EU water it down or:
B. Take full control of our laws, trade policy and immigration policy.

We already voted to leave the EU.

A new choice, if we have one, would have to be how we leave.

As David Davis resigns saying we have already given too much away.

As Gove admits that we are probably going to make more concessions.

As The Tories move ever closer to Sir Keir Starmers long held well thought out crystal clear plan.

As more and more leavers are saying; all the above plans leave us worse off than if we stay in the EU.

Now cometh the game changer. Now cometh the clown. or is he the trickster King ala Trump.

Now cometh the resignation of Boris. He has not quit just to blow raspberries from the back benches.

Its a leadership challenge innit.

Is there going to be a leadership contest?

Tony Blair seems to be pulling the strings in Labour again,fudge and delay with a stooge like Starmer,then another referendum to say Remain.I do suspect there is a lot going on in the background that Davis and Johnson may open up on now.