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cyclops
27 Jun 18 11:05
Joined:
Date Joined: 11 Apr 02
| Topic/replies: 870 | Blogger: cyclops's blog
Forget for a moment your own views on Brexit and step back to look at how we're getting there - or not.
This from John Pienaar today:

"This is a long, long, long way from strong and stable [leadership] ... This is so far from strong and stable government that it is much more like a pub in rough neighbourhood at closing time".

Pienaar also said that a minister told him recently that, if Theresa May tried to resign, they would “nail her into her office” because there was nobody else who could hold the party together.


Whatever your views on what you want, or what you believe "the people" voted for, can anyone support or justify what is going on at the top levels of government or, indeed, the opposition?

Has such incompetence ever been seen in UK politics? And can anyone have any confidence that what they voted for stands the faintest chance of being enacted?
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Report sageform June 29, 2018 8:58 AM BST
Agreed. Although I am a life long Tory voter, I was seething when Mrs M. called the latest election as I could see what was coming. Total shambles led by someone with terrible judgement. Only fair to point out that the Brexit result was not something that the majority of the Cabinet wanted or expected so they can't be blamed for the fact that we have to leave but the way they have approached the negotiations is shameful.
Report anxious June 29, 2018 10:06 AM BST
An embarrassment to the country
Report InsiderTrader June 29, 2018 10:16 AM BST
The political system in the UK is broken.

It is a locked down 2 party system where the majority of the elites are pro-EU, pro-open borders whereas the majority of the public are not.

Under the 2 party system there is no real way for the population the influence government if the two main parties have the same views. This was also the case in the USA until Trump came in the save the system.

We only got a referendum because UKIP threatened the Tories chance of being elected.

In 2015 UKIP got 2.5 times the votes of the SNP. SNP got 56 MPs and UKIP got 1.
Labour got 2.5 times votes UKIP got. Labour got 232 seats and UKIP got 1.

In places like Italy popular parties can influence government more due to PR. Democracy is therefore more direct.
Report sageform June 29, 2018 12:50 PM BST
IS, you have point but the countries with many parties and no overall majority don't seem to get good Government. Ask the Italians and Spanish. Only large majorities for one party lead to any real change whether you agree with the change or not.
Report InsiderTrader June 29, 2018 1:52 PM BST
Italy appears to have a very good government at the moment. Particularly their home office. They are actually causing real change in the EU. The German people (e.g. Edy on here) suggestion their system works very well.

If UKIP had got over 100 seats in 2015 and joined the Tories I doubt we would be leaving the EU. Instead they would have taken us seriously when we went to sort out a sensible immigration policies. But having a non-representative government meant people voted for the nuclear option in the referendum.
Report PorcupineorPineapple June 29, 2018 4:10 PM BST
We had a referendum on PR. You lost. Get over it. Stop trampling on the democratic vote dude.Silly
Report Dr Crippen June 29, 2018 4:39 PM BST
What difference does a government that is perceived to be strong and stable make in contrast to one that isn't?

Except to the news reports.

We still pay the same tax, we still get the same services.
They still get their stuff through Parliament.
Report tony57 June 29, 2018 8:23 PM BST
the conservative party..is the disgrace..they put power before country,and have destroyed the social fabric of our nation..the labour party cannot be blamed as they are not in power..yes they are poor..i agree..but the responability lies with the goverment.
Report anxious June 29, 2018 8:46 PM BST
Too true Spiv Culture has destroyed this country
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip June 30, 2018 2:07 PM BST
On brexit i think shes tried very hard to unite the country and keep doors open where possible.
A big majority in the election might have bought some more unity to the country. Transition arrangements quietened some of the shouts from business about cliff edges at the time. On ireland she hasnt shut the door on any options.

The problem is that keeping doors open and being flexible in negotiations means nothing is getting done and its all too indecisive. Proof will be in the pudding but it looks weak when you've got someone like Trump around who plays things very different.

Outside brexit theyve been useless. Daft ideas followed by u-turns, complete loss of party principles and any sense of competent government.
Report Dr Crippen June 30, 2018 2:29 PM BST
Plenty of criticism for the government here, but hardly any substance to the criticism.

So with regard to this lack of substance, a casual observer could conclude that there isn't any and take the opposite view, which is that the government must be doing okay.
Report PorcupineorPineapple June 30, 2018 3:35 PM BST
If the casual observer is a complete cretin then yes, I agree.
Report Dr Crippen June 30, 2018 3:49 PM BST
There's that name calling again.

I wonder how our casual observer would describe someone like that?
Report moisok June 30, 2018 4:34 PM BST
it is just a bunch of people who have different ideas

they do share the idea of 'graft' though - there is hardly one politico not interested in the dosh they can make out of their position

hope I have helped you all here
Report Foinavon June 30, 2018 4:36 PM BST
Another cretin signing in. We'll vote for anything wearing a blue rosette (as long as Mrs May doesn't fudge Brexit).
Report moisok June 30, 2018 5:01 PM BST
I would have thought we should make the uk attractive for business.  I am not sure about selling utilities to the french and germans though
Report anxious June 30, 2018 5:28 PM BST
58 milion for 9 water executives over 5 years , yep the Cowboys are at it again
Report anxious June 30, 2018 5:29 PM BST
That same ole trickle down song , fall for it every time
Report Foinavon June 30, 2018 6:55 PM BST
Water down to a trickle when the spivs lackeys are out watering their golf courses and lawns for them.
Report Foinavon June 30, 2018 6:58 PM BST
It doesn't really matter though as the Great Unwashed don't need much water at the best of times and you can always buy French bottled water from the bottled drinks spivs if you're thirsty.
Report tony57 June 30, 2018 7:10 PM BST
yep..the torys sold off our birthright..and then gave the city all the money in shares..and sold some to the public who could afford it?..same thing with social housing..ive always been of the opinion if you can afford a mortgage..then you should buy a private house not social housing which should be for rent only...but we lost that argument..as we lost our birthright water, gas, electric, nukes rail..etc...
Report lfc1971 July 1, 2018 9:48 AM BST
thought we still had social housing
Report lfc1971 July 1, 2018 9:50 AM BST
too much social housing , more than ever before ?

Might be the problem , I don’t know
Report anxious July 1, 2018 10:24 AM BST
Foinavon unless you are writing a comedy sketch i do believe you have seen the light
Report Foinavon July 1, 2018 11:15 AM BST
There's always a grain of truth, anxious. Grin
Report enpassant July 1, 2018 12:10 PM BST
Tory brexiteers are cowering in the background refusing to even try to take the poisoned chalice of brexit. May would have resigned the day after the GE if she had not felt responsible for the mess. The right of the party would not countenance her jumping ship all the while hiding away themselves shouting from the sidelines. The fact that she is still in place and palpably suffering, shows a callous nature of hardliners. 
It's all a complete mess, on both sides of the house. Johnson, Gove, Mogg, Fox ffs - does anyone really believe that list contains a PM ? We are f...ed.
Report cyclops July 2, 2018 12:05 PM BST
How Dr Crippen can say the government is doing well is beyond me.

Two years on and they can't even decide what they want to ask for, and the vague options they have mooted have already been rejected by the EU.

If that is good governing we have a differing view.

Paralysed from doing anything else for the country, Brexit has become an increasingly odious boil that has to be lanced but our PM lacks the courage, vision, strength and basic honesty to do so, while her so called colleagues fester behind her in mutual loathing, consumed by a toxic stew of personal ambition while lacking the guts to challenge her.

As said at the start of the thread, whatever your Brexit views, we have been appallingly short-changed by a government incapable of governing, and an opposition incapable of opposing.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip July 2, 2018 7:55 PM BST
we have been appallingly short-changed by a government incapable of governing, and an opposition incapable of opposing.

On brexit - two ways of looking at that imo.

The fact that Corbyns lot aren't destroying the tories on their brexit strategy means either the opposition are incapable or they agree with the strategy to some extent. TMay looks to me like shes drifting further and further to the left and her maliable approach to negotiations is probably exactly the relationship that Corbyn hopes to inherit one day. Outside the EU but with strong ties to Europe.

It might still work as well lets not forget. She might pull off a great deal that leaves everyone surprisingly satisfied. Or she might get anhialated by the EU, a discontent electorate or her own party.
Report Dr Crippen July 2, 2018 8:11 PM BST
How Dr Crippen can say the government is doing well is beyond me.

I didn't say that, I said that a casual observer noting the lack of substance to the criticism might take that view.
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 2, 2018 8:24 PM BST
If he were a cretin
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip July 3, 2018 8:36 AM BST
TMay now talking about a 75 point plan to tackle LGBT dissatisfaction. Im not bothered, but this isnt conservative politics? What is going on?

- Is it an overreaction to the bloody difficult woman comments she used to get?
- Is she blackmailing the party with moves to the left if they dont support her?
- Is she trying to get sacked?
Report enpassant July 4, 2018 11:35 AM BST
Or none of the above.
Report Dr Crippen July 4, 2018 11:46 AM BST
If he were a cretin

There's that nasty streak again.
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