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InsiderTrader
13 Jan 18 18:33
Joined:
Date Joined: 25 Aug 05
| Topic/replies: 9,393 | Blogger: InsiderTrader's blog
We keep hearing 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

This is obviously the case. Why would anyone sign up to a bad deal?

It is 18 months since the Patriots of the UK voted for freedom from tyranny of the old white men of Brussels.

Since then the Tories have been undermined by the other parties and people within their own party.

We have now agreed IF we sign a final deal to pay billions of pounds to EU vanity projects.

We are now looking for a 'transition' period that is giving even more uncertainty to UK business and citizens.

We still do not know if the tyrants will allow us to restrict immigration or make trade deals with other countries.

We need to walk away now and stand on our two feet make make our own choices.
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Report InsiderTrader January 13, 2018 8:08 PM GMT
I am a 100% positive person.

If something is not working out I quit that venture and move to the next thing. Learn from the experience.

The EU is not working out. It is bad for the UK already and it is moving in the wrong direction.

With any trade or betting system you make it work by cutting your losses as soon possible and let your winning positions run.

The UK in the EU is a losing position for us. We need to cut it and seek out new winning opportunities before our entire society is ripped apart.
Report unitedbiscuits January 13, 2018 8:25 PM GMT
No offence, IT, but I wouldn't readily trust you to wax my car. So when you make sweeping statements about what the vote means or what sixty million people want, for their own good, I certainly don't want to see you behind a steering wheel. .
Report InsiderTrader January 13, 2018 8:40 PM GMT
UB,

What is your motivation for wanting the UK to remain locked into the policies decided by the old white men of Brussels?

a. You personally gain financially from the status quo?
b. You support protectionism against developing countries?
c. You think the EU is the best way to stop immigration to Europe of non-Christians?
d. You want to give power of our courts, military and finance to un-elected officials because you don't trust UK politicians?
e. Something else?
Report unitedbiscuits January 13, 2018 8:51 PM GMT
All of the above.

In respect of d) - one has only to look at the "firm within a firm" inside the Tory Party and in charge of Brexit.

Have to go now, IT.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 9:16 AM GMT
Simple it's up to the people to vote the tories out
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 9:18 AM GMT
There should never have been any talk about a deal. Any deal with the EU will be a bad deal
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 9:20 AM GMT
Everywhere must take care of itself , only in this way can there be progress
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 9:21 AM GMT
If possible we must make ourselves invisible
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 11:07 AM GMT
I'm with you all the way, IT.
We already have a bad deal with the EU we don't need a worse one. We have a huge trade deficit with them under the customs union where we have to pay billions every year for the privilege and a trade surplus with the rest of the world. Without EU protectionism we will be able to import cheaper food from elsewhere which will help poorer members of society.
Even if the peace in Europe hypothesis is true which is debatable, it makes no difference whether we are in or out. They managed quite well in that respect without us for more than a quarter of a century and we have given guarantees to the Baltic States that we will still support them militarily after Brexit. A false argument for remain.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 11:24 AM GMT
But you don't want Europe to manage quite well and peaceably for the next twenty five years, Foinavon; you want to destroy the EU. That is the only way Brexit can succeed. It is the one gambit on which Brexiteers risk everything. At least be honest about it.
Report Dr Crippen January 14, 2018 11:57 AM GMT
What peace in Europe? What did Blair send troops to Kosovo for?

We've had no trouble from Germany since WW2 because they were split in two and occupied by the Russians in the East and us in the West.

Who else was there to start a war with Germany out of the way?
Report Dr Crippen January 14, 2018 12:00 PM GMT
Funnily enough, since Germany has been unified, Europe has fallen out with Russia - again.
Report dave1357 January 14, 2018 12:04 PM GMT
Without EU protectionism we will be able to import cheaper food from elsewhere which will help poorer members of society.

We have to impose WTO tariffs or abandon all tariffs causing the complete collapse of the remaining manufacturing industry and bankrupting most farmers.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 12:10 PM GMT
Disturbing when Brexiteers let slip just hoe their world-view hasn't developed from the war comics and toy soldiers they had as children. Just too young to fight in real war, yet in their heads it is forever 1944. For you Tommy, the war is never over.
Report Dr Crippen January 14, 2018 12:19 PM GMT
And more than a match for any EU commie barsteward UB.
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:28 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2018 -- 12:00PM, Dr Crippen wrote:


Funnily enough, since Germany has been unified, Europe has fallen out with Russia - again.


The relations with the USSR sure were rosy and warm before 1990.

IT
We keep hearing 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

This is obviously the case. Why would anyone sign up to a bad deal?


What if, in fact, no deal happens to be the worst of all deals for all sides involved?

Report InsiderTrader January 14, 2018 12:37 PM GMT
Edy,

No deal is not worse than not being allowed to sign trade deals, having to pay money to finance tyrants and having to keep open borders.

To clarify it is worse for the bankers and multinationals but not worse for the people.

Out of interest do you see yourself as German first or European first?
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:40 PM GMT
I'm edy first and foremost Happy
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:41 PM GMT
Then I'm my region of origin, then German, then European, then a world citizen, then a lizard person.
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 12:43 PM GMT
But you don't want Europe to manage quite well and peaceably for the next twenty five years, Foinavon; you want to destroy the EU. That is the only way Brexit can succeed. It is the one gambit on which Brexiteers risk everything. At least be honest about it.

I do want Europe to remain peaceful and prosper, it's in out best interest. I fear it may fall apart of it's own accord if they can't get the currency sorted out. We are not in the euro so shouldn't get involved in that at all. All we need do is carry on trading with them, we've offered them tariff free access to our markets if they will do the same.
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:48 PM GMT
To clarify it is worse for the bankers and multinationals but not worse for the people.

The thing is - a pretty darn comprehensive trade deal on goods isn't even much of a question. That will be reached. What your government initially described as a bad deal and takes offence with would be finances not included. Hence that bad deal would primarily hit bankers.

Whereas a no deal would also hit manufacturing, farmers and so on.
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 12:48 PM GMT
We've also offered military cooperation and intelligence sharing at no cost to them other than reciprocal agreement but they still want their pound of flesh for leaving.
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:49 PM GMT
The thing is - a pretty darn comprehensive trade deal on goods isn't even much of a question. That will be reached.

and without free movement being part of it btw.
Report edy January 14, 2018 12:49 PM GMT
*free movement of labour
Report InsiderTrader January 14, 2018 1:15 PM GMT
edy
14 Jan 18 12:48
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 179,983 | Blogger: edy's blog
To clarify it is worse for the bankers and multinationals but not worse for the people.

The thing is - a pretty darn comprehensive trade deal on goods isn't even much of a question. That will be reached. What your government initially described as a bad deal and takes offence with would be finances not included. Hence that bad deal would primarily hit bankers.

^

This is a misconception.

The bankers will stay in London but some tax payments and admin staff will move to an EU backwater if there is no deal on services.

A deal on goods but not services would be a terrible deal for the UK UNLESS we are allowed to do our own deals with the rest of the world and control our borders.

If it was just a deal for goods I would expect the EU to pay for access to our market not the other way round.
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 1:20 PM GMT
What your government initially described as a bad deal and takes offence with would be finances not included. Hence that bad deal would primarily hit bankers.

Of course we want services included in the deal, the financial sector is essential to our economy and pays huge amounts of taxes. A goods only deal for Europe would be having your cake and eating it, something Monsieur Barnier has vetoed for us. You can't have it both ways.
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 1:22 PM GMT
Sorry. IT, hadn't seen your post before writing mine.
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:24 PM GMT
A deal on goods but not services would be a terrible deal for the UK UNLESS we are allowed to do our own deals with the rest of the world and control our borders.

It's been communicated since the very first minute that you can get a deal on goods without customs union and free movement of labour any day.

Foinavon • January 14, 2018 1:20 PM GMT
What your government initially described as a bad deal and takes offence with would be finances not included. Hence that bad deal would primarily hit bankers.

Of course we want services included in the deal, the financial sector is essential to our economy and pays huge amounts of taxes. A goods only deal for Europe would be having your cake and eating it, something Monsieur Barnier has vetoed for us. You can't have it both ways.


I understand you want it included. It's a simple matter of what you are willing to offer in return for it to reach a fair deal.
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 1:28 PM GMT
I can't help you there, edy, but I will continue to buy German sausages and ham if that helps.Wink
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 1:30 PM GMT
There will be no deal with that nest of vipers.
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:32 PM GMT
You should buy jellied eel, not German sausages (assuming you mean the utterly disgusting frankfurters).
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 1:35 PM GMT
There are two types of Brexiteer - those who unconsciously or secretly wish harm on the EU, and those who are open about it. If the EU does prosper after Brexit, then the UK is faced with a hard choice
a) Watch the UK fall further and further behind the prosperity levels of like EU countries - principally France and Germany, which would be the 1950's and 1960's replayed, to the point where we are accepted, on our knees, back into the European fold.
b) Undercut the EU, essentially become an offshore haven for tax-avoidance whilst making a bonfire of social-security and safety type regulations in an attempt to become globally competitive. A pirate island flogging fake Rolex and rubber dogshit. Of course, this free-market dream can only flourish with a permanent far-Right administration, something like Batista's Cuba
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 1:39 PM GMT
Similarly, there are two types of Remainer.

Those who voted on 23/06/16 and accepted the result as a fair democratic choice, and moved on with their lives.

And then there are those Remainers who voted on 23/06/16, found that they were not in the majority and have been mewling about it ever since.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 1:43 PM GMT
"Countries which cannot change their minds cease to be democracies."
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:45 PM GMT
@jed

The most glorious day in the history if the Great British Empire would not have been possible if a certain Nigel Farage had not been mewling about a previous referendum and using his democratic right of discourse in the decades since.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 1:49 PM GMT
Easy edy, Nigel belongs to us to use now. And who can blame him for crossing sides? Looking at the state of UKIP today, it's hard to believe the party had 80% support on this forum before the referendum.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 1:50 PM GMT
The country has not changed its mind UB, and nor have you.

And edy, your opinion does not matter to me.
Report InsiderTrader January 14, 2018 1:50 PM GMT
UB,

Going back to your points last night. Were you happy with Merkel opening the borders of Europe in 2015?
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:51 PM GMT
Facts ain't your thing, are they IT?
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:51 PM GMT
Seriously mate, you so often talk about being so much smarter than the sheep but then you always post this factless propaganda.
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:52 PM GMT
Even after having been told what actually happened and given the ressources to verify it.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 1:52 PM GMT
They're fickle boys, edy.
Jed at least is upfront about wishing the EU destroyed, but he tends to over-reach himself in speaking for the country.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 1:56 PM GMT
The EU needs to be destroyed. Fortunately it will destroy itself soon enough, and you will have to find another undemocratic, corrupt, job-destroying organisation on which to hang your treacherous hat.
Report edy January 14, 2018 1:58 PM GMT
That is very sad, jed. I don't think you can dispute however that Brexit was only possible because of the democratic discourse that people like Sir Nigel kept alive because they didn't accept a prior result. The idea that a democracy should abide by the mindset of "You lost, suckers! Move on and completely shut up!" is a travesty.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 2:00 PM GMT
There you go.
Good to see you managing expectations, jed. "Soon enough." Not soon enough to save Brexit.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 2:03 PM GMT
"Stop all the clocks," policy concerning democracy and Brexit, doomed to failure.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:07 PM GMT
edy is confused, after the referendum result every mp and indeed everyone in the country should have been leave
Farage was entitled to campaign for Britain to leave , when we were in
And someone else can campaign to renew our membership once we have left
So that's how it should work in a democracy
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:10 PM GMT
I think everybody accepted the prior result edy - in 1975. It was a long time before Alan Sked founded UKIP, (1993 iirc) when it became apparent that our membership had to end. Even then, UKIP garnered little support in the UK - it was only the policies adopted after 2002 by Blair which started to push the issue to the forefront of our Politics. And in fourteen years, an issue which barely registered with the people became the issue which divided us.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:10 PM GMT
After all after the vote to become members of the EU no one campaigned or tried to stop us joining , certainly not the British people respected the vote
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:13 PM GMT
Since then of course we have had a lot of foreigners come to Britain , many other countries are not like Britain and don't understand the principles of democracy , it it doesn't come as naturally to them as the English
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:18 PM GMT
so to try an explain as simply as possible , after the referendum result no one in parliament , or the House of Lords, or indeed the country should have been a remainer
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:19 PM GMT
some people won't understand that
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:22 PM GMT
Some people on here won't lfc, I think we can take that for granted
Report edy January 14, 2018 2:26 PM GMT
Labour had the EEG withdrawal in its 1983 manifesto.
Report edy January 14, 2018 2:26 PM GMT
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/man/lab83.htm
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 2:28 PM GMT
Pleased to see you have a sense of humour, edy. Other types of sausage are available, even in England.
(sorry for the delay but I am multitasking cricket trading and helping in the kitchen - and failing miserably).
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:28 PM GMT
There's one right there who doesn't understand ^
Report edy January 14, 2018 2:28 PM GMT
That's not a nice thing to say about Foinavon, lfc.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:29 PM GMT
: ) sorry foinavin , meant edy
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 2:30 PM GMT
Very good edy Laugh
No problem lfc.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:33 PM GMT
Maybe it did, but Labour were only a minor party at that point.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:35 PM GMT
Well it's almost too late for Britain to behave properly , if we can even now the whole world will look on in amazement at Britains power to govern themselves with only their own judgement
But it's been a very bad start
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:36 PM GMT
And you do rather prove my point - Labour achieved its worst result in living memory with its 1983 manifesto.
Report edy January 14, 2018 2:41 PM GMT
Over 27% of the popular vote still sounds like a whole bunch of people to me. The point was rather that not even one of your two primary parties, had moved on and just shut up as you demand people to. Which, of course, is what we need in a democracy.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:43 PM GMT
A person can be utterly foolish as long as he learns how to adapt , all is not lost
even for stragglers such as edy and biscuits
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:44 PM GMT
I fear it's too late for biscuits lfc, he is lost to sanity. And edy is German, so his opinion on the internal politics of Great Britain is of no concern to anyone.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:47 PM GMT
really jed that might be true , democracy does not come naturally to people who are not English , or American
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:47 PM GMT
From memory edy, I think the SDP mob almost got as many votes as Labour and they were only ever a minor irritant.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 2:50 PM GMT
Brexiteers have very low tolerance for dissent, as shown on these pages. Democracy did not cease on 24th June 2016. That would be like the Mayflower voyaging without a rudder.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 2:51 PM GMT
I merely have a low tolerance for single-issue bores.
Report edy January 14, 2018 2:52 PM GMT
First lfc is rude towards Foinavon, now you, jed, insult Sir Nigel...

Not cool, buddies.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:54 PM GMT
In a democracy it is equally important , perhaps more so , to be silent as to speak
It's easy to be silent biscuits
Report dave1357 January 14, 2018 2:54 PM GMT
lfc1971    14 Jan 18 14:47 
really jed that might be true , democracy does not come naturally to people who are not English , or American


Germany gave women the vote nearly 10 years before Britain and nearly 30 years before the USA.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 2:54 PM GMT
What do want to talk about then, jed? The combustibility of building material? Your mellifluous prose?
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:55 PM GMT
nonsense dave , they shot people in Germany if they disagreed with them
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:56 PM GMT
It was our burden , and America's to teach Germany the principles of democracy ...well civilised behaviour actually
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 2:57 PM GMT
I want to hear eddy's opinions especially as he is living in Germany. We need to hear all sides of the argument.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 2:59 PM GMT
Well there you are , foinavon was just the sort of Englishman who had to teach the Germans about democracy ,
edy was a very lazy student .
Report dave1357 January 14, 2018 2:59 PM GMT
In fact theoretically the US didn't move to universal suffrage until 1971
Report dave1357 January 14, 2018 3:00 PM GMT
Various GOP states are trying to reverse that with gerrymandering etc.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 3:01 PM GMT
dave simply doesn't understand the subject
Report edy January 14, 2018 3:02 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2018 -- 2:56PM, lfc1971 wrote:


It was our burden , and America's to teach Germany the principles of democracy ...well civilised behaviour actually


Democracy, sure, but civilised we've mostly been. There is a reason Germany has been known as the country of "Dichter und Denker" (Poets and thinkers) for many centuries now.

Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 3:04 PM GMT
There's some truth in that edy I agree, however there have been more great English poets than every other country in the world ...possibly combined
Report edy January 14, 2018 3:05 PM GMT
Oh please
Report edy January 14, 2018 3:06 PM GMT
The small town of Weimar alone has had more great poets and thinkers than all of England in its entire history.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 3:06 PM GMT
My mellifluous prose seems to really grate with you UB, almost as if you are disappointed that you are not the only person on here who can write with a degree of fluency.
Report jed.davison January 14, 2018 3:07 PM GMT
I do hope you are not including the turgid von Goethe in that number edy.
Report unitedbiscuits January 14, 2018 3:08 PM GMT
Edy, I'm afraid you are on a sticky wicket here. Most of these posters have an idea of Germany based on their war-comics and their plastic Afrika Corps soldiers and tanks. Just warning you.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 3:08 PM GMT
Quite possibly the silliest thing I have heard for some time , you will be telling me that Germany produced more great rock musicians also
It is simply impossible
Report edy January 14, 2018 3:10 PM GMT
No, in rock music England is clearly leading, but rock is devil's music done by satanists anyway. Not something too many Germans would get into.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 3:11 PM GMT
Well we can only be what we are : )
Report edy January 14, 2018 3:12 PM GMT
Real, good music is folk music where the entire crowd can happily clap along in rhythm.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 3:15 PM GMT
Only two countries in the world were capable of producing rock music , America and Britain
They heard the velvet underground across the Berlin Wall
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 3:26 PM GMT
I am a great fan of German music. I positively dislike most pop music, there is good and bad in folk and much of what is good has been enhanced by classical composers.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 7:35 PM GMT
^ that's the second silliest post today,  perhaps even more silly than edys
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 8:17 PM GMT
but of course that doesn't matter everyone's taste in music is different , never can we
understand it and never should we wish to investigate it
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 9:36 PM GMT
Why is it silly lfc? I was stating my taste in music, that's all.
I have my own thoughts on silly posts but I keep them to myself.
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 10:26 PM GMT
sorry foinavon, I shouldn't have said it
Report lfc1971 January 14, 2018 10:33 PM GMT
In defence I didn't mean it that way, just that I think that to write a truly great pop song is one of the most difficult and beautiful things to do in any form of music
Report Foinavon January 14, 2018 10:46 PM GMT
That's Ok lfc. Many people seem to enjoy listening to pop music, I don't.
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