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InsiderTrader
22 Dec 17 07:57
Joined:
Date Joined: 25 Aug 05
| Topic/replies: 5,567 | Blogger: InsiderTrader's blog
Results of yesterdays new elections forced by the Spanish State resulted in a majority again voting for pro-independence parties. They stood up the bully.

Is it is time now for the EU and countries like the UK to stand up for the rights of Catalans and back their rights to be independent without the threat of violence from the Spanish State?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42451100
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Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 8:44 AM GMT
I concur entirely.  The EU does support Scottish independence, does it not?  Hypocritical?  Why of course!
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 8:55 AM GMT
Had the EU army been in place when the UK wanted a referendum for Brexit would they have done the same thing to us?

Big supranational groups using for the keep rich small countries under their control and paying taxes.
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 9:00 AM GMT
An EU army is something to be afraid of.  Very afraid.
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 9:34 AM GMT
They don't want independence, until they do they should pipe down
Report dave1357 December 22, 2017 10:17 AM GMT
InsiderTrader    Joined: 25 Aug 05
Had the EU army been in place when the UK wanted a referendum for Brexit would they have done the same thing to us?


The most extraordinary strawman argument I have ever read.
Report dave1357 December 22, 2017 10:19 AM GMT
trilby22    Joined: 21 Aug 10
I concur entirely.  The EU does support Scottish independence, does it not?  Hypocritical?  Why of course


Yes they must Trollby, that's why they said that Scotland would be thrown out of the EU if they voted for independence in the referendum.
Report edy December 22, 2017 11:09 AM GMT
Oh go away with your stupid facts, dave. Details, pah!
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 11:24 AM GMT
David is back to his strawman nonsense because he has nothing of substance to add to the thread.
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 11:37 AM GMT
The Spanish State used extreme violence against Catalans who merely want to express a vote for independence.

Anyone who supports that is asking for trouble in the future.

But David cannot imagine that in a few decades time if the EU has a similar paramilitary force that this could happen to an EU state seeking independence.

I suppose some people are just complacent.
Report dom888 December 22, 2017 11:52 AM GMT
Nationalistic trumpist dont care about facts.
Their prejudices are the real facts.
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:01 PM GMT
They don't want a vote for independence , that's why the Spanish government are right not to allow them one
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:02 PM GMT
It should be the same principle for Scotland also
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:06 PM GMT
All that is needed from republicans is that they are honest
anythings possible
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:14 PM GMT
Do they want independence? Well the first step can be taken this very weekend, it's entirely in their own hands
Withdraw Barcelona from La Liga
That's a small first step
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:16 PM GMT
If they don't do that? well until then don't allow them a vote , they can't be trusted with a vote
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:29 PM GMT
: ) dom I have so much money I don't know what to do with all the money
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 12:34 PM GMT

Dec 22, 2017 -- 11:24AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


David is back to his strawman nonsense because he has nothing of substance to add to the thread.


Only to the thread? Laugh

Anyway, I hope this helps him and his new buddy ... from eight months ago.

German MEP Elmar Brok says Scotland rejoining EU 'could be speedy'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39507794

The process of an independent Scotland rejoining the European Union could be "relatively speedy", a senior German MEP has said.

Elmar Brok said there would be few technical obstacles to overcome if the political will was there to allow it to happen.

Mr Brok also suggested Europe's opposition to independence had softened as a result of the Brexit vote.

But he said much would depend on the attitude of countries such as Spain.

Mr Brok is the former chairman of the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee, and a member of Angela Merkel's CDU party.

Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:35 PM GMT
no , no, I am not telling lies
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:37 PM GMT
It's simple to understand trilby, the EU wants to try and breakup the U.K.
Report dom888 December 22, 2017 12:37 PM GMT
Trollby got no job as well lol or 80+ with too much time
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:38 PM GMT
Especially Germany and France, they envy our great kingdom
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 12:38 PM GMT
That is absolutely correct lfc.
Report lfc1971 December 22, 2017 12:39 PM GMT
stop pretending you have a job dim888, you're a layabout
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 12:39 PM GMT
^ on both accounts.

lol, make that three!Laugh
Report edy December 22, 2017 12:52 PM GMT
Please no ageism. That's unacceptable.
Report dave1357 December 22, 2017 12:55 PM GMT
InsiderTrader    Joined: 25 Aug 05
David is back to his strawman nonsense because he has nothing of substance to add to the thread.


You've invented an EU army and invented a scenario where a country has a legal referendum and the EU invades that country.  That's what I call "nothing of substance".

The EU has no mandate or authority over the Catalonia issue other that to give an opinion on the effect of independence on the relevant treaties.
Report edy December 22, 2017 12:57 PM GMT

Dec 22, 2017 -- 12:34PM, trilby22 wrote:


Dec 22, 2017 -- 11:24AM, InsiderTrader wrote:David is back to his strawman nonsense because he has nothing of substance to add to the thread.Only to the thread? Anyway, I hope this helps him and his new buddy ... from eight months ago.German MEP Elmar Brok says Scotland rejoining EU 'could be speedy'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39507794The process of an independent Scotland rejoining the European Union could be "relatively speedy", a senior German MEP has said.Elmar Brok said there would be few technical obstacles to overcome if the political will was there to allow it to happen. Mr Brok also suggested Europe's opposition to independence had softened as a result of the Brexit vote. But he said much would depend on the attitude of countries such as Spain.Mr Brok is the former chairman of the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee, and a member of Angela Merkel's CDU party.


From that same article of yours

He told BBC Scotland: "If there is a possibility that the United Kingdom breaks - which we do not hope - then I think we should have a positive relationship with Scotland to find solutions.

Happy

Report dave1357 December 22, 2017 1:01 PM GMT
@ trollby

Before the referendum the EU was quite clear that Scotland would have to re-apply.  This was emphasised by your unionists as a negative.

In any case Scotland was a completely legal referendum, the Catalonian one was as legitimate as the Crimean one.  They can only move forward with the agreement of the Spanish government.
Report moisok December 22, 2017 1:04 PM GMT
It is about control.  We are seeing this with poland and hungary  etc   oh and brexit - their propaganda machine (part paid by us) is in full swing against the idea of independence.  Leaving the nice happy family results in punishment if we leave.
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 1:55 PM GMT
@ Dave

Were you happy with the extreme violence the Spanish State against Catalans who merely want to express a vote for independence.

If Nicola Sturgeon called another Scottish referendum without it being authorised by the UK Parliament would you be happy to see armed British police beating up OAPs attempting to vote on the streets of Edinburgh?
Report dave1357 December 22, 2017 2:08 PM GMT
obviously it was heavy handed but surprised you've not asked if I'd be happy if the EU army beat up Edinburgh pensioners.  That was the point you were making, wasn't it?
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 2:18 PM GMT
No Dave. My disgust is that neither the EU or UK condemned the brutality of the Spanish paramilitaries on the Catalans.

The UK offered Scotland a choice. The Spanish Globalist Government are not offering the Catalans the same despite inflicting 40% youth unemployment on their people by refusing to give up the Euro.
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 2:52 PM GMT
That's great Edy but why not highlight Brok's whole quote?

But Mr Brok said that "Scotland has our sympathy" after the country voted by 62% to 38% for the UK to remain part of the EU in last year's referendum, despite the UK as a whole voting to leave.

He told BBC Scotland: "If there is a possibility that the United Kingdom breaks - which we do not hope - then I think we should have a positive relationship with Scotland to find solutions.

"We would like to have Britain as a whole in the European Union. If parts would come, I would be the last one who would be against it."

Anyway, do you really believe the, "which we do not hope" bit to be true?  Pull the other one, matey!
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 2:55 PM GMT
^ and of course he would like to have Great Britain.  It would save your country billions.
Report edy December 22, 2017 4:51 PM GMT
None of what you quoted in that latest post of yours highlights that Brok (or the EU as a whole) would want Scotland to break free.
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 6:38 PM GMT
Edy,

The EU's hope is the have centralised power at the centre with 'regions'.

The destruction of national identity is the key to this.

Imperial powers from the Romans, to the British to the Nazis have used this trick since the beginning of time.
Report trilby22 December 22, 2017 7:13 PM GMT
Okay edy.  Frohe Weihnachten.


edy

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Report moisok December 22, 2017 7:17 PM GMT
I just saw a sky journo  interview another sky journo in spain

ha ha
Report Foinavon December 22, 2017 7:18 PM GMT
The EU put the cart before the horse creating the single currency before achieving political union and fully harmonising economic policy and taxation. The result has been deflation and loss of jobs particularly among young jobseekers in the weaker economies of southern Europe. We are starting to see political consequences of this unsound strategy agreed at Maastricht in 1992.
Report edy December 22, 2017 7:37 PM GMT
True, the Nazis were all about destruction of national identity. It's already in their name after all. Nationalism was pure evil for them.
Report Foinavon December 22, 2017 7:46 PM GMT
The Nazis were defeated before I was born, edy. Do you know something I don't?
Report Foinavon December 22, 2017 7:54 PM GMT
Oh I see you were replying to an earlier post by IT, I couldn't see the relevance to mine, sorry.
Report Dr Crippen December 22, 2017 8:06 PM GMT
Will we still have to pay the foreigner hotel tax every time we check in to a hotel in Catalonia?
That's the only interest I've got in the place.

Cheeky sods, O'Leary soon sorted them out when they started to come the awkward over Ryanair subsidies.

''Please come back Mr O'Leary, we promise to be good commies in future and not renege on done deals again.''

''All right but watch it from now on.''
Report edy December 22, 2017 8:09 PM GMT
No worries, Foinavon. Ironically enough it was the French president at the time, Mitterand, that pushed for the single currency as sort of a condition for French agreement to German reunification against Kohl's wishes (who basically agreed with what you said in the first sentence of your post)

Trilby, you too Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLT9dSt8cwg
Report InsiderTrader December 22, 2017 10:58 PM GMT
edy
22 Dec 17 19:37
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 178,811 | Blogger: edy's blog
True, the Nazis were all about destruction of national identity. It's already in their name after all. Nationalism was pure evil for them.

Clearly the Nazi were about German nationalism. But in the territories they conquered they split countries into regions. 

If you look at this map you can surely see this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/World_War_II_in_Europe%2C_1942.svg

For instance France split in 2. Eastern Europe not split by national boundaries and so on.
Report edy December 22, 2017 11:42 PM GMT
If you only invade and occupy part of a country (while the other part cooperates with you) it is kind of bound to be split. National boundaries is interesting anyway, considering the topic of this thread. And considering that many of these "national boundaries" are rather randomly drawn up and often the result of conquer and occupation.

Shouldn't everything be done to remind Catalans that they're part of the Spanish state and they better behave Spanish instead of a portion (contrary to what you claim in the opening post btw, the separatist parties got a minority of the total vote. They do have a parliamentary majority though)?

Or wouldn't it indeed make sense if we rethink these horrible nation states that came to existence through so much bloodshed? E.g Germany came to be because Bismarck lied his head off and he was eager to wage war against France. Our "national boundaries" also moved throughout history. Why should it be God's law that Bavarians live in a nation state with Schleswigians? They're more similar to Austrians and Bozenians. Why is a nation state that puts Celts under the rule of the English the holy grail?

A confederation of regions where the people of Catalonia, Bozen, Bavaria, Yorkshire, Pommerania, Scotland, Basque etc. etc. don't have to be part of a nation state they only belong to because of conquer or military alliances their royals/rulers made once upon a time sounds like a neat idea to me I gotta say.
Report edy December 22, 2017 11:45 PM GMT
That 2nd paragraph should read

If nation states are everything, shouldn't then the Catalans be reminded every step of the way that they're part of the Spanish state and they better behave Spanish instead of a portion (contrary to what you claim in the opening post btw, the separatist parties got a minority of the total vote. They do have a parliamentary majority though) longing to not be part of the Spanish nation state anymore?
Report edy December 22, 2017 11:54 PM GMT
and if you say the Catalonians deserve their own state/region, which they well do, then so do all the others I mentioned and plenty more. We would indeed break down the nation states and restore historical regions.

To me, your support of Catalonia breaking off on the one hand and your condemnation of regions and a lack of "national identity" on the other side just seem inconsistent.
Report edy December 23, 2017 12:00 AM GMT
I mean, why do you think Catalonia is receiving so little support from other European nation states? Because a lot of them have regions that might want to go the same route if they see it can be done. That was already a talking point during the Scottish referendum. Spain played hard ball regarding a Scottish EU membership because they didn't want their separatists too much momentum at the time.

That's another point where you don't quite make sense. You say you don't want nation states to fall apart but not only do you support one rebel region breaking off, but you also expect nation states to voice their support for Catalonia and hence to give hope to their own separatist movements that could well see regions breaking off of them.
Report trilby22 December 23, 2017 7:46 AM GMT

Dec 22, 2017 -- 8:09PM, edy wrote:


No worries, Foinavon. Ironically enough it was the French president at the time, Mitterand, that pushed for the single currency as sort of a condition for French agreement to German reunification against Kohl's wishes (who basically agreed with what you said in the first sentence of your post)Trilby, you too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLT9dSt8cwg


While I have a few issues with the Mormons, there is no denying their Tabernacle Choir is rather impressive.  Cheers for the link Happy

Report InsiderTrader December 23, 2017 9:27 AM GMT
edy
22 Dec 17 23:54
Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 178,819 | Blogger: edy's blog
and if you say the Catalonians deserve their own state/region, which they well do, then so do all the others I mentioned and plenty more. We would indeed break down the nation states and restore historical regions.


'We' dont need  to force anyone to do anything.

But if a country wants to split off from a made up state like Spain or the UK we should not prevent them having a referendum. If the referendum is not 'legal' then maybe the country is not able to split immediately.

My point is why use extreme force to prevent people from expressing a view they want to split? That is what I dont like. The EU has taken measures against Poland recently and put Sanctions on Austria in the early 2000s. It has powers to condemn policies it disagrees with. In this case it has done nothing.
Report moisok December 23, 2017 9:00 PM GMT
I didn't realise you were a fascist federalist edy
Report Dr Crippen December 23, 2017 9:26 PM GMT
I didn't realise you were a fascist federalist edy

Who Jackboot edy?

Yeah I could have told you that moisok.
Report edy December 23, 2017 11:05 PM GMT
I believe you'll find that federalism and fascism are entirely different, incompatible concepts. With regional governments being the key element of federalism and everything.

Also, I wrote about confederalism. Federalism and Confederalism aren't quite the same thing either.
Report InsiderTrader December 24, 2017 10:41 AM GMT
Is it possible to have a fascist leader of federalism system?
Report sageform December 24, 2017 4:43 PM GMT
Neither Spain nor the EU will take any notice of the latest Catalan election as it did not go in their favour.
Report moisok December 24, 2017 4:52 PM GMT
looks like they all stamp on the throat of the individual as  far I can see it

they ignore us
Report moisok December 24, 2017 4:52 PM GMT
and edy supports this
Report edy December 24, 2017 7:22 PM GMT

Dec 24, 2017 -- 10:41AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


Is it possible to have a fascist leader of federalism system?


You can have a fascist leader, but that leader will have a much harder time turning your country into a fascist state than he would e.g have with a unitary state.

To create a fascist state, that leader might find would have to first destroy the federalist system and rebuild it into his nationalist dream dictatorship (if e.g you're a young democracy coming out of monarchy and your rookie constitution writers made a bunch of rookie errors while penning your constitution).

A good, strong federalist system is the natural enemy of every authoritarian leader.

Report edy December 24, 2017 7:23 PM GMT
*To create a fascist state, that leader would first have to destroy
Report moisok December 26, 2017 1:11 PM GMT
It is possible to have anything.  Look at the creation of a massive bureaucracy controlling most of europe. Who could have imagined how the common market could have become this? We never looked at the small print ho ho!!!
Report InsiderTrader June 2, 2018 4:57 PM BST
New hope for independence now that Mariano Rajoy has fallen due to the corruption case.

The new PM Sanchez says he will start up talks with the region.

The one downside is that Sanchez is a strong supporter of the Euro.
Report Foinavon June 2, 2018 5:24 PM BST
Who could have imagined how the common market could have become this? We never looked at the small print ho ho!!!

All part of the masterplan, Mo. Ted Heath knew about it but chose not to inform the British public, the evil lying b'stard. They never even thanked us for all the fish.
Report treetop June 3, 2018 5:34 PM BST
He admitted all that in an interview with Robin Day many years aferwards,started my scepticism of the project although I had supported entering the trading market. A project built on deceit.
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