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trilby22
18 Dec 17 21:29
Joined:
Date Joined: 21 Aug 10
| Topic/replies: 187,519 | Blogger: trilby22's blog
It certainly appears that way.  Hardly suprising really as they certainly couldn't run our once great country & would need help from Brussels.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/942334655470194688
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Report drive for show putt for dough December 18, 2017 11:06 PM GMT
Labour are all things to all people and they have actually played the long game rather well.

I suspect the majority of labour mps would like to remain if they could. The leadership probably want out.

I suspect deep down Labour are quite happy for the brexit ball to sit in the tory lap and probably hope it is sorted before they have to fight another election.
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 19, 2017 9:26 AM GMT
Well if you can't trust Nige to be your unbiased, balanced and utterly fair source of news then what can you trust?
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 9:49 AM GMT
Corbyn and the labour leadership are determined to keep Britain in the EU, and to maintain  free movement of people against the wishes of the British people
They want as many foreigners in Britain as possible , remember this the next time you vote
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 19, 2017 9:50 AM GMT
Any actual evidence for that lfc? Links, position papers etc.
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 9:56 AM GMT
Corbyn and many of his colleagues are ideologically opposed to the UK, well they would allow any foreign power to have a say in how this nation should rule itself , they want to weaken the U.K. and make it reliant on forces outside Britain
Quite honestly and simply that is their game.
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 9:57 AM GMT
I listen to what they say, and I watch what they do pineapple
I already see too much
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 19, 2017 10:00 AM GMT
Yeah, but can you produce what you hear and say for others to also see and hear so we can also decide if they are determined to keep us in the EU.

I'll be honest with you, if I have to look for evidence on their stance on Brexit then it seems they are in favour of it so any help would be gratefully received.

Also any evidence they are ideologically opposed to the UK and want to weaken it.



thanks in advance,
Report anxious December 19, 2017 10:11 AM GMT
Jeremy wants out i think
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:13 AM GMT
listen even just recently to Starmer saying that labour would work to force a change in the course of Brexit
tge weasel words , easy access instead of free access , it's there for anyone to see the object of their dastardly plans
They wish to decide over and above the heads of the British people
They will fail , they must do
Report trilby22 December 19, 2017 10:16 AM GMT

Dec 19, 2017 -- 9:26AM, PorcupineorPineapple wrote:


Well if you can't trust Nige to be your unbiased, balanced and utterly fair source of news then what can you trust?


You said that in your usual "unbiased, balanced and utterly fair" way Wink

Labour is likely to announce that it wants to stay in a modified version of the EU customs union indefinitely, according to three members of the shadow cabinet.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-will-push-to-remain-part-of-customs-union-dtrnh0vzp

Report anxious December 19, 2017 10:16 AM GMT
That being the tories and their trickle down friends
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:18 AM GMT
anxious they are republicans and communists in all but name , don't trust them they don't deserve to be trusted
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:18 AM GMT
: ) I meant labour of course
Report anxious December 19, 2017 10:23 AM GMT
No lfc they are good people who want the best for the majority of our country , not just the privileged  few and they will expose the Tory Lie Machine
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:24 AM GMT
Didn't the Labour Party just vote against the latest Brexit bill in a blatant attempt to stop Brexit ?
Of course that is what they did , why did they vote against it if not for those very reasons
Everything they say, everything they do is towards that aim imo
Report trilby22 December 19, 2017 10:25 AM GMT
Lab & Con both have major flaws Anx but I prefer the lesser of two evils ... & I imagine many would agree.
Report anxious December 19, 2017 10:26 AM GMT
Trilby the youngsters want Jeremy , they all voted for him.
Report trilby22 December 19, 2017 10:32 AM GMT
The young are foolish & inexperienced Anx - as most of us once were.  I side with the Tories but have no great love for any of them.
Report trilby22 December 19, 2017 10:33 AM GMT
^ and the young are gullible too.
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:36 AM GMT
Alexander Solzhenitsyn said in a speech , I think at Harvard , that when a countries older generation hands over responsibility for the countries well being and the decisions it makes to the youth it is in great danger
It was a warning from him to America , from a Russian point of view
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:38 AM GMT
He said it in front of America's young people , you see he was a very great man and not afraid to speak the truth no matter the audience , unlike Corbyn and the Labour Party
Report anxious December 19, 2017 10:40 AM GMT
The young want hope not despair thats why they prefer Jeremy
Report trilby22 December 19, 2017 10:49 AM GMT
We all want hope & not despair.
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:53 AM GMT
I wouldn't allow them a vote until they had started work
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:55 AM GMT
No one at school or university should be allowed a vote
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 10:58 AM GMT
If you leave school at 16 and are in work or looking to find a job you can vote
If you are 22 and at university you should not have a vote
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 19, 2017 11:12 AM GMT
I'd take lfc's point further. No vote unless you are in work. Students and pensioners excluded.

Let's be honest a lot of political problems are caused by short term thinking. There's a severe lack of long term planning that would stretch across several parliaments. They are only focused on their own term.

Anything longer than that is not a vote winner. Why would a 70-year old vote for a undeniably good policy that would take 10-15 years to enact? There's nothing in it for them so they will oppose it and go with the party who are offering more things aimed straight at them. Meanwhile problems are simply storing up for future generations.

Now if they are in work and still paying taxes then fair enough. They are paying their way and are earning their right to vote. But if they've got their feet up and simply wasting time till they pop their clogs then we need to ensure they aren't involved in our planning for the future, as they simply have no interest in it.
Report Foinavon December 19, 2017 11:48 AM GMT
Total nonsense Porky and you know it. Most people want to see a better world for their children and grandchildren regardless of age. Those voting for Brexit don't expect to see any immediate benefits for themselves, they believe it will result in a better long-term future for the country.
Report moisok December 19, 2017 12:29 PM GMT
Starmer grooming himself for greatness - he thinks.  As the eu funded propaganda machine grinds on
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 1:24 PM GMT
pineapple doesn't think things through . No vote unless you are in work ? That would be disasterous .
Because people in work would be happy to keep things just as they are and not worry about those not in work
People are like that , selfish
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 1:25 PM GMT
Now I am becoming quite tired of remainers like pineapple and their selfish self centred nonsense
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 1:30 PM GMT
That was why I was careful to say that anyone who is an adult , and that means someone who has left school , even at 16 could be allowed to vote , in work or looking for work
It is not so much a matter of work , although that is important in maturing people quickly , it means they are in the real world
Report lfc1971 December 19, 2017 1:32 PM GMT
Trust pineapple to get everything so wrong, remainers are like that
most are incapable of logical thought
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 19, 2017 1:55 PM GMT
LFC - you just made my point for me. Selfishness. Selfishness is the root of the problem. Selfishness is what causes short term thinking and is disastrous. History teaches us that pensioners as a bloc will vote for whichever party offers them the best deal.

To be fair to the tories they dabbled with grasping the thorn this time. They thought about stopping some of the ridiculous benefits on offer and to go some way to reducing the debt they've built but quickly had to change tack because the pensioners threatened them that they'd vote for someone else.

It happens time and again. They are a very influential voting lobby. And it is proven they are only interested in themselves; not in the long term prospects of their children and grandchildren. Nay, they believe that the youth of today have it too easy and should get stronger through enduring the same difficulties they have suffered. Now is their time to reap the benefits of a lifetime of work and woe betide anyone who suggests they should pass some on to the next set of pensioners.

As I've said, if they're still contributing to the wealth of the nation then let them enjoy the rights that go with that but the likes of the postal voters from Benidorm earning more through their pension than some working families do should have no say in the future of this fine country. And anyone who disagrees with that clearly doesn't have the nation's interests to heart but are merely more interested in themselves. There's a word for those types of people.
Report Foinavon December 19, 2017 2:13 PM GMT
I doubt the pensioners living in Benidorm are reliant on state benefits. I also doubt many of them voted to leave as it would make their choice of residence less certain.
Report Burt06 December 20, 2017 8:24 PM GMT
They are a remain party that detests white working class people. That old boy in Barnsley last week would once have been their core voter, now the likes of Abbot and Lammy would rather spit and sneer at him and call him names.
Report Foinavon December 20, 2017 10:12 PM GMT
Burt, you have just reminded me of the little "misunderstanding" between Gordon Brown and Gillian Duffy.
Report Burt06 December 21, 2017 12:33 AM GMT
You know during the referendum when Labour were phoning their base in the north east to try and convince them to vote remain they actually instructed their volunteers to stop calling middle aged working class men. Tells that demographic all they need to know.
Report trilby22 December 21, 2017 7:43 AM GMT
Labour have become a party of (and for) the quisling & the Conservatives really need to get their sh!t together before they self-destruct.

Little wonder there are so many remainers wanting Brussels rule when our choice of political party is so lame.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 9:39 AM GMT
Labour are a remain party.

There are five main type of Labour voter:
1. Working class
2. Public Sector workers.
3. Immigrants.
4. Champagne socialists.
5. Naive students.

69% of people that voted Labour want to remain.

These are generally the London dwellers (area 37% foreign born), public sector workers, naive students and champagne socialist Alastair Campbell types.

They are in the richer social economic groups.

The voters (and non voters) that are semi-skilled and non-skilled overwhelming are pro-Brexit.

These are the voters that Diane Abbott does not want to talk about (see Marr show from Saturday).

The big question is with rising public sectors workers, students and immigration do Labour still need the working class votes to win an election?
Report anxious December 21, 2017 11:26 AM GMT
IT  you really are talking complete drivel again , most of the 262  Labour mps represent working class constieunces , the young voted for Jeremy and so did more of the middle aged , the tories top support is in the over 65s
Report anxious December 21, 2017 11:32 AM GMT
There a a few types of tory voter
The greedy and the selfish - who read the daily mail
The right wing little englanders - many who read brietbart and long for cricket and warm beer
The Brainwashed - most of them believe the Tory Lie Machine
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 11:33 AM GMT
The majority of people working in non-public sector jobs vote Tory.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 11:48 AM GMT
Anxious,

In terms of the EU vote you really are in denial as to which Labour voters supported remain.

For instance in the latest BMG poll:

Ethnicity

BME voted 68% remain (increased since referendum)
White British 47% remain (decreased since referendum)

Household income

Less than £20k 44% remain (decreased since referendum)
20k-35k 48% remain (no change)
35k-60k 57% remain (increased since referendum)
>60k 60% remain (increased since referendum)

Class

DE 41% remain (decreased since referendum) unskilled
C2 40% remain (decreased since referendum) semi-skilled
C1 54% remain (no change) lower management
AB 58% remain (increased since referendum) upper management

You can clearly see white poorer people want Brexit more than ever.
BME people and the richer management people do not want Brexit.

We are more divided than ever with the rich wanting to stay in the EU to stitch up the poor white working classes.

Are you arguing with those stats?
Report anxious December 21, 2017 11:50 AM GMT
Are you really trying to tell me that the rich vote Labour IT Crazy
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 11:59 AM GMT
No. I have said these groups vote labour:

1. Working class
2. Public Sector workers.
3. Immigrants.
4. Champagne socialists.
5. Naive students.

Of these groups I am saying 2, 3, 4 and 5 are likely to vote Brexit.

(1) i.e. the White Working Class and those with less than £35k household income are more likely to want to leave the EU.

The working class who overwhelming support Brexit and the ending of free movement of people are being ignored by the Labour party.

That is what I am saying.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 11:59 AM GMT
* correction


Of these groups I am saying 2, 3, 4 and 5 are likely to *NOT* vote Brexit.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 12:10 PM GMT
70% of Labour MP represent leave constituencies.
Report anxious December 21, 2017 1:04 PM GMT
Lots of immigrants vote tory as well
Report anxious December 21, 2017 1:06 PM GMT
What you are attempting to do is the old tory con trick , divide and conquer IT
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 1:29 PM GMT
Divide and Conquer?

Or digging into the data to try the understand Labour policy?

Of course some BAME voters vote Tory.

It was 23% in 2015 and 19% in 2017 GE.

By contrast for Labour it was 66% in 2017 up from 62% in 2015.

When we looked at these voters they are also mainly remainers.

This is in stark contrast to the white working class Labour voters who Labour are ignoring.

If we then look by religion

85% of Muslims support Labour compared to 11% Tory.
Anglicans, C of E and Jew over 60% vote Tory and around 25% vote Labour.

If Labour can generate more BAME and non-Christain/Jewish voters ultimately current voting patterns say they will win more elections.
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 1:30 PM GMT
What is "white working class" please?

Does a Polish delivery driver with blonde hair count?
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 1:34 PM GMT
who does a worldly wise student vote for?
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 1:36 PM GMT
I like champagne, but believe in the free market (albeit a sensibly regulated one).  Am I a champagne capitalist?

Can I vote for this party?
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 1:43 PM GMT
bigpoppapump
21 Dec 17 13:30
Joined: 16 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 4,661 | Blogger: bigpoppapump's blog
What is "white working class" please?

Does a Polish delivery driver with blonde hair count?

A white person in band C2, D or E.
If a Polish delivery man meant those criteria then yes. Although he could not vote unless a citizen.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 1:48 PM GMT
bigpoppapump
21 Dec 17 13:34
Joined: 16 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 4,661 | Blogger: bigpoppapump's blog
who does a worldly wise student vote for?


How would I know?
I would imagine any student last election would have been tempted to vote for Labour if just about to start uni with the promise of free tuition. They might make the calculation that 3 years saving those fees followed by a couple of years chilling out until the communists are out of power is the best thing for their situation.
Report dom888 December 21, 2017 1:55 PM GMT
Even more hilarious is IT likes trump, whos a super capitalist who lower the taxes for the rich and superrich and the middle class has the disadvantage of inflation. IT must be shizophrenic or not very smart.
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 2:17 PM GMT
if you can know who a naive student would vote for, it follows that you would also know who a student who is not naive would vote for.

Or are you using the term naive for all students?  (and thus as a term of abuse).
Report anxious December 21, 2017 2:37 PM GMT
He will be checking the data from Brietbart for the answers i think or Torygraph or Daily Fail
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 3:08 PM GMT
he's got over-focused on one issue (Brexit) and hasn't any depth to his analysis of who votes for which party, or indeed any deeper understanding of voter psychology.  He doesn't even make a half-hearted stab at any of the obvious "why?" questions.  If his hypothesis is correct - that Labour is a Remain Party masquerading as a Leave Party - and that seems reasonable to this poster - then he could do so much more with this.  He could explore the contradictions of that being the case. Why, with Leave being a winning issue for 52% of voters, and Corbyn being a career believer in the UK not being part of the EU, is Labour seemingly trying to avoid talking about Brexit?.  On Brexit Labour's leader is aligned with their traditional white-working voter base and yet the perception of the party as the party of the pro-Remain public sector and the black London vote.  And why - despite these contradictions did Labour outperform expectations so spectacularly in Summer 2017?

He displays a shallow grasp of a very complex (and potentially interesting) subject.

D minus.
Report bigpoppapump December 21, 2017 3:15 PM GMT
my personal view - in stating that he's "digging into the data to try to understand labour's policy" he displays a fundamental ignorance of politics because policies do not follow from the votes a Party (any Party) receives.

Thinking you can understand a party's policy by means of psephology is an error.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 3:29 PM GMT
Anxious,

Which of the data I posted are you disputing?

I know you want to take this off topic.

Are you suggesting the labour voting working class are pro-remain and the BMG poll is wrong?
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 3:31 PM GMT
You can download the spreadsheet from here:

http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/independent-poll-shift-toward-remain-at-height-of-brexit-negotiation-tensions/
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 4:06 PM GMT
bigpoppapump
21 Dec 17 15:08
Joined: 16 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 4,664 | Blogger: bigpoppapump's blog
he's got over-focused on one issue (Brexit) and hasn't any depth to his analysis of who votes for which party, or indeed any deeper understanding of voter psychology.  He doesn't even make a half-hearted stab at any of the obvious "why?" questions.  If his hypothesis is correct - that Labour is a Remain Party masquerading as a Leave Party - and that seems reasonable to this poster - then he could do so much more with this.  He could explore the contradictions of that being the case. Why, with Leave being a winning issue for 52% of voters, and Corbyn being a career believer in the UK not being part of the EU, is Labour seemingly trying to avoid talking about Brexit?.  On Brexit Labour's leader is aligned with their traditional white-working voter base and yet the perception of the party as the party of the pro-Remain public sector and the black London vote.  And why - despite these contradictions did Labour outperform expectations so spectacularly in Summer 2017?


Labour did better than expected than the Tories in summer 2017. Why?

1. Offer of uni-fees got the student vote. Places link Canterbury is a prime example.
2. They campaigned on endding the free movement of people, single market and customs union. This got back white working class voters who might have voted UKIP. Farage quitting as leader gave the impression the job was done on that.
3. May run the worst campaign in living memory.
4. Increase in the number of minorities voting Labour from Tory lost May 26 seats.


The key point on this thread is point (2) where Labour have changed their mind on the Single Market, Customs Union and now want the 'easy' movement of people. They are blaming corporations for exploiting free movement labour rather than the concept itself on the declining living standards of the working class. They are gambling that now UKIP is politically dead and the Tories are being weak on Brexit the working class have no where to go other than vote Labour.

What is needed is a party like lead by someone like Mélenchon who will stand up for the indigenous working class. Corbyn as an international socialist is not that man.
Report edy December 21, 2017 4:24 PM GMT
I can't see a Celts First, degrowth labour party gaining much traction in England.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 4:33 PM GMT
Do you dispute the data presented Edy?

I notice no one is disputing the data. There are just attempts to move the conversation off topic.
Report anxious December 21, 2017 4:37 PM GMT
IT  i think that the political situation is yes a little volatile i think everybody would agree on this , when you look at data and polls etc nobody can be sure that is that reliable because people change their mind all the time, i would agree that big business and the establishment are  pro EU , but then you suggest that the Labour Party is pro EU , i would say that a majority of Labour mps and tory mps are pro EU , but a lot of Labour voters are not .
Report anxious December 21, 2017 4:40 PM GMT
A lot of Labour voters will agree with Jeremy and support most of his policies but may disagree about his views on immigration , but they will still vote for him because they do not trust the tories one bit on anything
Report edy December 21, 2017 4:45 PM GMT
I don't see me mentioning any data dispute.

My judgement of a Melenchon-esque leader instead of Corbyn not being a hit with people isn't moving the conversation off topic, is it? I picked up a point you brought up.

It's kind of funny though I keep seeing you describe Corbyn as a communist, but then you big up Melenchon who is Corbyn on really strong drugs (figuratively!).

Couldn't resist the small jab on your use of indigenous working class either.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 4:47 PM GMT
A big majority of MPs are pro-EU.

A big majority of consistencies are anti-EU.


The majority of Tory voters are anti-EU.

The majority of Labour voters are pro-EU.


The majority of people on higher incomes are pro-EU.

The majority of people on lower incomes are anti-EU.


The majority of people in management roles are pro-EU.

The majority of low skilled and unskilled workers are anti-EU.


The divisions are becoming greater as time goes on. The poorer unskilled people becoming more and more anti-EU whilst the richer management types are becoming more pro-EU.
The argument from MPs like Chuka Umunna is that the poorer unskilled people did know what they were voting for so they should be ignored.
Report anxious December 21, 2017 4:52 PM GMT
There was a lot of misinformation from both sides i believe , also IT 52-48 is not a landslide lets not pretend it was , i myself voted voted to leave but im not fanatical about it
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:01 PM GMT
52% of the vote is massive.

For instance in Tony Blair's landslide in 1997 he only got 43% of the vote.

Tories in 2017 got 46% of the vote and could only form a minority government.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:08 PM GMT
The real story of the last election was the decline in the UKIP vote by 12% because people thought Brexit was 'done'. They went from 14.2% of the vote to 2.1%. This is a massive change.

Labour went up 10% from 32% to 42%
Tories went up 5% from 41% to 46%

The way it rolls in consistencies makes for a wild change in seats.

Labour are clearly forgetting how many seats they lost because of the labour voters voting UKIP in 2015 by backtracking post the 2017 election.
Report anxious December 21, 2017 5:09 PM GMT
I know But 48 per cent is massive too
Report edy December 21, 2017 5:18 PM GMT
True, anxious. After all, Tony Blair's landslide in 1997 only got 43% of the vote.

Comparing percentages of a two horse poll with one containing more choices is kind of weird methology though.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:19 PM GMT
That is true. It was than the Tories got in the last 2 elections.

As a leave supporter and a Tory/UKIP supporter I am unhappy with the backtracking of the Tory government over Brexit and freemovement of people remaining for the transition period as well as the rights of up to 5 million children, grandparents and spouses to come and settle in the UK after Brexit.

As a leave supporter are you happy with Labour backtracking on the Single Market, Customs Union and supporting the 'easy' movement of people post the EU exit?

To me it appears that the rich globalist establishment are making sure they can keep their cheap labour flowing to the UK post Brexit. What do you think?
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:21 PM GMT
edy are you British or German or something else?
Report edy December 21, 2017 5:43 PM GMT
Indigenous European
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:46 PM GMT
Edy,

What are your views on the UK voting to leave the EU?
Report edy December 21, 2017 5:49 PM GMT
I've answered that exact question to exactly you at least twice over the course of the past few months already Plain
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 5:53 PM GMT
Not that I saw.

Whilst the exchange is broken why not write 1000-2000 words on your thoughts as a person who sees yourself as an EU citizen without nation state allegiance on the UK peoples' rejection of that notion.
Report edy December 21, 2017 6:30 PM GMT
Who says I don't have any allegiance beyond the EU? Is my occasional bigging up of Germany as easily the best and coolest country around too subtle a hint?

Ok, if you ask so nicely even though you're are sure to forget again in a hurry In the past we've had quite long talks about the German education system. Just three days ago (and a lot of other times in the past) I told you me and my family are from the former GDR and today you seriously ask me if I'm British, German or something else. What gives, buddy?

The UK leaving is unfortunate for both the UK and the EU. Most of all it's unfortunate for the UK because some political figures played with the hopes of people and erected expectations that were never realistic to begin with. All for their own political proliferation. Stuff like that the EU would absolutely cave in, you wouldn't have pay a penny of your commitments and that generally the UK easily has the upper hand in the negotiations all the way (because cars). That that is not the case and has never been seems to slowly but surely sink in except for the most blind folks around, but now it's too late and you gotta walk the walk and make the best of it.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 6:49 PM GMT
Just because you know about the German education system and had family in the old East Germany does not mean you are German.

For instance your family could have come here post WW2 and some family members could have been stuck in East Germany after the Berlin Wall was put up. You could be a UK citizen who happened to have German parents or grand parents and went to Germany on a teacher exchange programme.

Why be so evasive about your nationality?
Report edy December 21, 2017 7:08 PM GMT
yeah, that could all be the case if I hadn't told you on other occasions that I'm German. Evasive? I've ended posts on here with

"Your German Friend Etienne."

in threads you participated in. Or posted things like

edy • October 13, 2017 2:43 PM BST
I am German. We are not able of producing comedic moments and certainly we would never take the piss with anyone.


in threads you also participated in.

or

edy • October 6, 2017 10:52 PM BST
We Germans will always have your backs. We're brothers after all.


in yet another thread you participated in. Get the picture? I'm also absolutely certain I told you specifically in the past when you asked.

I'm also the tennis forum's most beloved token Germany and can never contain myself from talking endlessly about how awesome Julia Görges is.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 7:13 PM GMT
Apologies for not seeing those. I genuinely did not know 100% you were not British. Your English is better than most British.
Report edy December 21, 2017 7:18 PM GMT
Well, thank you very much. Always looking to improve and iron out the errors to pay the respect the language deserves.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 7:28 PM GMT
I was under the impression that Betfair was priced out of the German market due to a punitive turnover tax.

Unfortunately the EU single market has not managed to allow the freedom of companies throughout the EU to offer gambling products to each other.
Report edy December 21, 2017 7:44 PM GMT
yeah, sadly the single market isn't quite complete yet. It's a WIP, also with things such as video on demand services.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 7:50 PM GMT
Yep. Its a disgrace.

The UK tried for over a decade to open up the betting markets and country after country locked out UK bookmakers/exchanges that could provide value to consumers and the EU did zero to help those consumers.

In the end the UK brought in a licencing system that now prevents UK gamblers accessing global betting companies like Pinnacle.

The EU lets consumers down again and again.

It is a political operation uninterested in the little people. Some times it throws us a bone such as mobile phone roaming fees but ultimately it is just about keeping the old men in Brussels (who failed as politicians in their home countries) in power.
Report edy December 21, 2017 8:11 PM GMT
I'm not quite sure I get the connection between the EU and the UK choosing to licence/tax bookmakers from Curacao. Maybe that was more about UK taxes and lobbying work from UK books to shut out competition?

Gambling, and especially online gambling, is a very complicated topic. There's no doubt it is incredibly detrimental to people and societies as a whole and sucks vast amounts of money out of the pockets of the little man (and with it from the economy the little man hails from) for no real gain other than satisfying (and nurturing) an addiction. I'm not sure if gambling should really be the prime example of how the EU fails the little man.

The ECJ has ruled on a number of occasions against the member countries on this, then the member country makes a new law, which again gets taken to court and so on. It's a WIP as I said. The member countries are putting up real resistance. Eventually it will open up though.

From the EU perspective it's also complicated. If the commission comes out stronger against what the member countries do and you'll get the "How dare these unelected domestically failed dictatorial Brussels bureaucrats meddle in our national sovereignty?" questions coming out. It's a constant balancing act.
Report InsiderTrader December 21, 2017 8:20 PM GMT
Gambling turnover taxes in Germany are nothing to do with helping problem gamblers.

When you get the horseracing authorities buying into racebets out of Malta you can surely see the idea of a free market in services in the EU is dead in the water.
Report edy December 21, 2017 10:02 PM GMT
I know it's not primarily about helping problem gamblers. Stupid nationalism and Germany First, am I right?

Still, while a nuisance for myself, I am of the opinion that in general a unified gambling market should be right at the back end of the to do list.
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