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15 Dec 17 11:49
Date Joined: 03 Dec 15
| Topic/replies: 7,104 | Blogger: PorcupineorPineapple's blog
Bear with me. I'm not joking.

"There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool. The Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, who is no longer in the Chamber, said that Clement Attlee - who is, I think, one of the Deputy Prime Minister's heroes - famously described the referendum as the device of demagogues and dictators. We may not always go as far as he did, but what is certain is that pre-legislative referendums of the type the Deputy Prime Minister is proposing are the worst type of all.

Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge.

We should not ask for people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it."

Ok, it might be from 15 years ago but it's a shame the eminent sense he spoke back then seems to have totally deserted him and his colleagues now.
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Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 12:16 PM GMT
Report akabula December 15, 2017 12:37 PM GMT
Well spotted PP.
We should have issued every voter with an 8000 page document showing the fine details.
Then nobody would be in any doubt.
Mind you given all the different scenarios 8000 might not be enough.
That's a winner.
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 15, 2017 1:28 PM GMT
Well at least you're on the right lines aka so you get a bonus point for that.
Report akabula December 15, 2017 4:57 PM GMT
Are you ian blackford?
Report akabula December 15, 2017 4:59 PM GMT
I find it really funny that the left, who are generally quite thick, are accusing the right of not knowing the facts.
Report donny osmond December 15, 2017 5:33 PM GMT
if we were waiting for the assesments to be done before the vote, maybe davis would have got his finger oot
Report treetop December 16, 2017 6:24 PM GMT
If we had been relying on the honesty and integrity of Cameron and Osborne ,bearing in mind Project Fear,to keep us well informed prior to the referendum, we would all be deceased !
Report donny osmond December 16, 2017 9:50 PM GMT
i see a pattern emerging emongst tories
Report donny osmond December 16, 2017 9:50 PM GMT
Report treetop December 17, 2017 3:32 PM GMT
If you can discern any pattern to emerge from Labour towards Brexit please enlighten us because all I have learned so far is they change with the wind.
Report treetop December 17, 2017 5:03 PM GMT
This would concern me more as it is becoming more prevalent in our political arena

....the woman was subjected to vile online abuse by a Left-wing hate mob after her husband clashed with the Labour leader in the Commons. One fanatic told her, 'hope your baby dies' while the MP received death threats that are now being investigated by police.

Read more:

Meanwhile a pattern emerges about Labour supporters but donny probably turns a blind eye to this sort of behaviour,just everyday banter from Labour party memebrs it seems.
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 17, 2017 6:40 PM GMT
And Diane Abbott's received death threats. So did Rosie Cooper and the MP for Riverside.

The rebelling Tories featured on the Mail's front page recently also received death threats from those desperate for Hard Brexit to go through unchecked.

If there's a pattern - apart from the Mail being a hypocritical rag, which we already knew - it's that people can be pretty horrible online with a perceived sense of anonymity to protect them.
Report treetop December 19, 2017 3:54 PM GMT
Aye,pp but the Labour party took it all to a new level when Damien Mcbride developed campaigning online as a tool years ago.Individual nutters we can understand but the politicians were happy to stand aside when farage and UKIP were on the receiving end,now it is coming back to roost. But seriously,saying they want your unborn child to die because he joked about Corbyns age ???
Report PorcupineorPineapple December 20, 2017 1:19 PM GMT
Yep, it's Labour's fault.

Incidentally, there was research into online abuse of MPs before the election. Turns out that 45% of ALL abusive messages were aimed at Diane Abbott. One person.

Then you look on here and you see abusive posts about her on both the politics and chit chat forum. Take 30 seconds on twitter and you can't miss some "excellent banter" where some "diamond geezer" has turned the clock back 90 years and decided blacking up to mock her is perfectly acceptable in this day and age.

How's about you do a survey of all those people and see how many of that 45% are paid up Labour members.
Report treetop December 20, 2017 4:00 PM GMT
I really wouldnt expect any survey to be completed honestly but Abbott is a one off for me,her incompetence shines through even by Westminster standards.Nastiness on both sides should be condemned but when parties begin to use it as a tool that is out of order,my gut feeling is that Labour picked up this style of campaigning from the Democrat party in USA when Mandelson and Campbell went to study the US style of campaigning.Momentum took it to a new level in the last election.
Report anxious December 20, 2017 6:32 PM GMT
Really and have you never heard of the Tory Lie Machine ?
Report Lampus December 20, 2017 8:55 PM GMT
He  said  he would resign  if  Green  goes  eerrrmmm
Report Facts December 21, 2017 12:35 AM GMT

The Tories have redefined the word ' incompetence '
Report Lampus December 21, 2017 5:42 AM GMT
Have Davies resign yet
Have Davis  gone  yet
Report Lampus December 21, 2017 9:37 AM GMT
Another U  turn
Report salmon spray December 21, 2017 10:34 AM GMT

David Davis is a wonderful chap.
Report salmon spray December 21, 2017 10:35 AM GMT
Ah they HAVE let me post THAT.
Very interesting.
Report Lampus December 21, 2017 1:15 PM GMT
Has Davis become a remain minister
Report donny osmond December 21, 2017 8:28 PM GMT
has he gone yet

called a byelection by chance ?
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