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bigpoppapump
14 Dec 17 08:07
Joined:
Date Joined: 16 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 5,875 | Blogger: bigpoppapump's blog
so it turns out that Parliament, not the Government is sovereign.  Something I think we democrats can all unite in celebrating.

Even if you support this Government, you'll agree with the democratic principle that our democratically elected representatives (elected by popular ballot in summer 2017) frame our laws.  One day there'll be a different government in power, and if you don't support that government, you'll be glad that Parliament is sovereign.

Hurrah for British democracy and if you disagree, please go and live somewhere where they don't like democracy.
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Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:08 PM GMT
and I can show you links to boris johnson saying the UK would continue to have access to the SM.  Spot a theme here?  (Clue is they're both campaigning).

Remain says it's going to mean a massive upheaval.
Leave say - project Fear, doesn't mean much change at all.

It's hilarious you're basing this "Brexit Means" argument on Cameron and Osborne !!!  They were on the losing side you clown.  The winning side - what was their campaign about? That's much more relevant...

And your answer is:  The Leave Campaign was about lots of different things...

none of which really matters - the need for interpretation is why this is not a matter for a referendum.  The question was about EU membership - any other interpretation is opinion.  sorry.
Report dom888 December 15, 2017 5:09 PM GMT
Bitter old men who think there are too many foreigners in the uk bigpop. Now after brexit, they dream its gonna be a completely different world. They will wake up soon.
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:09 PM GMT
Credit to Marr there.
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:13 PM GMT
well it is going to be different, and there are going to be fewer foreigners, and we wont even need to legislate for it.  It's simply less attractive for economic migrants.

And our demographic time-bomb will just hit sooner and be more destructive.

But at least the bananas will be yellower.  Or is it more bendy?  That funny chap Boris, he knows what's best...you can trust him - definitely got our  best interests at heart has old De Peffle Johnson the 18th...

Grin
Report akabula December 15, 2017 5:20 PM GMT
The reality versus the lies of the left.
So far this year.
246,000 more incoming economic migrants than there were leavers.
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:21 PM GMT
You haven't watched the Marr interview then? Boris said we would be leaving the SM, as did Gove, Farage, Cameron, Osborne, Junker etc.

BTW Cameron was PM and leader of 'Remain'. If he says we leave the SM I think that's fairly clear.

Sigh.
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:27 PM GMT
26th June, 2016 - BJ perfectly clear that we would retain access to the SM.

Why?

Because at that moment he thought he was about to be made PM!

When it (running the country) is somebody else's problem, then he wants us to leave.  The guy is a bell end.

And anyway - same point again - the fact is this was not part of the Ref question

sigh. etc.
Report donny osmond December 15, 2017 5:27 PM GMT
good to see parliament is more powerful than one person



go back 2000 years and julius, marc, octavian, tiberius, caligula and co show what can happen

go a few thousand miles west and you can see what still happens....
Report donny osmond December 15, 2017 5:30 PM GMT
240,000 more migrants the tories have let in, most from outside eu, so controls already exist

farage fanboys missing the trick here
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:33 PM GMT
Link to Boris? Thanks.

ps insult me properly. I don't suffer fools. And you're not one.
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:35 PM GMT
eh?

what insult?  unless you're boris johnson?
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:40 PM GMT
And again - this SM access thing is not to be confused with "my point of view",  I'm making the point that you are using a different question - leaving the EU - as a catch all for other things on your wish list.

i'm saying people screaming bile about "the will of the people" are a dangerous and anti-democratic crowd who do not have our best interests at heart.  Let's let the laws be framed in a calm manner please.  Nothing good comes of rushing these things.
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:41 PM GMT
Link. Please.
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:44 PM GMT
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

your google broken?

and it goes without saying that we are much better together in forging a new and better relationship with the EU – based on free trade and partnership, rather than a federal system.

I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:46 PM GMT
Unless you stop freedom of movement you haven't left the EU
that's all you need to know
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:48 PM GMT
Everything in bps last post can apply to America or any other country anywhere in the world
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:49 PM GMT
my last post was Boris johnson's cake and eat it nonsense from June 26th 2016 posted for Injera who doesn't understand search engines.
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:50 PM GMT
Once you stop freedom of movement everything else falls into place .
Do not allow freedom of movement , make this clear to the EU
And then continue with any trade talks
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:52 PM GMT
I don't think you understood what boris was saying bp
So no point quoting words if you don't understand words
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:52 PM GMT
Were you an editor on Yes Prime Minister?

Delay, confuse, distract and obstruct.
Report unitedbiscuits December 15, 2017 5:54 PM GMT
What a declaration. Boris's overarching, statesmanlike attempt to reconcile the fractured country (for all its transparent self-interest) shames the May Government that followed all too soon. If Mayism had attempted to incorporate the whole spectrum of voters, instead of narrowing the Leave vote down to the interests of the "left behind people", she may not be such a weak position now.

On the other hand, nothing could induce me to join the side of the people below..Laugh
Report unitedbiscuits December 15, 2017 5:55 PM GMT
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:55 PM GMT
Let me simplify it for you bp
Access to the single market is not the same thing as being a member of the single market
We don't want to be a member of the single market , or the customs union , or the EU
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 5:55 PM GMT
it's difficult to accept what you're being asked to accept but here's the request:

can you accept that a process may be flawed even if you won?
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:56 PM GMT
How was the process flawed , we haven't done anything yet
Report Injera December 15, 2017 5:56 PM GMT
You carry on with your insults. Still waiting for something decent though!

At what point does Boris say we will be IN the SM with obligatory free movement?

'Access' to the SM is something the Chinese, the Americans and I believe Uncle Tom Cobley an all has...
Report 1st time poster December 15, 2017 5:56 PM GMT
read littlejohn this morning screaming traitors at these rebels,saying they hate democracy etc and its just an excuse and could let leftie corbyn in tyo be PM,
WHere I get confused is corbyn could only get in by a general election and a democratic vote,seems littlejohn and others want people to vote with the government regardless of what they believe ,just to lessen,keep corbyn out just as undemocratic as the so called traitors ,littlejohn derides,littlejohn joins the long list of luvies who only believe in democracy when it suits them
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 5:58 PM GMT
^ cant make much sense of that
Report unitedbiscuits December 15, 2017 5:58 PM GMT
And Littlejohn lives in Florida.
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 6:00 PM GMT
As long as he doesn't live in France that's ok
Report bigpoppapump December 15, 2017 6:01 PM GMT
so you do not have to agree, but the following is perfectly reasonable:

The question on the ref ballot was about the UK's continued membership of the EU.

The implications of this question are huge.  The act of leaving - in the event of that result - will be complex.  And there's no unity of opinion on the different possible versions of leaving.

And that is why claiming the result as a justification for extra-parliamentary law making is flawed.

The result is only a justification for triggering article 50.  The how we leave, and the what leaving means questions have to be decided by our representatives (or, god forbid, more referendums).

This is not an attempt to confuse/delay or anything.  It's simply the fact that we live in a democracy and the people - all of them - deserve proper process about their laws.

That's my last post on this.  You're not stupid - you understand the point being made.
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 6:02 PM GMT
We have made it as simple as possible for you bp
Stop freedom of movement and everything else falls into place
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 6:04 PM GMT
She wasn't a conservative mp , that's the difference
Report lfc1971 December 15, 2017 6:05 PM GMT
Neither is littlejohn so he can write what he likes
Report unitedbiscuits December 15, 2017 6:05 PM GMT
He's gone lfc. He got bored with you. Burt wants to know if you still feel the same way about him though. Well, do you?
Report moisok December 15, 2017 8:31 PM GMT
None of them represents the likes of us - I simply wouldn't be concerned. They live on their expenses fuelled lifestyle and will continue to do so until westminster is cleared of all the politicos, their servants, the civil service, hangers on and the journos.  Then start again.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip December 15, 2017 11:47 PM GMT
Since we've had one referendum in a generation I'd hope that parliament can take it seriously.

And since 99% of countries outside the EU have the same deal with the single market I'd hope it was obvious to parliament what the referendum meant.

Even if its not obvious to everyone on here
Report melv December 16, 2017 6:37 AM GMT
I'm sure loads of people have said this. This is my agreement.

Ultimately I want to determined what my country does on my behalf. I cannot do this personally.

Therefore I want my elected representative to ensure ensure my country is run to suit me.

If I do not like this I  can write to; or speak to my MP; I can vote them out or I enter politics myself.

What I do not want is a self appointed administration making laws without giving my representative the right to speak up for me.

That is parliamentary sovereignty. Thank God. When people call me a traitor.  I laugh. But I will say  this;I am very patriotic about the sovereignty of parliament.

As it is I am very happy with the way parliament is struggling. Parliament is representing a very deeply divided country. It should be struggling hard so everyone can accept we have all done our best to sort this mess out. Don't moan Brexit. You efffin divided  this country and created this mess. Of course Cameron is to blame. Coward. He should have stood up for the mess he caused.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip December 16, 2017 9:07 AM GMT
And your representative should listen to you. And everyone else in their constituency. But since they will only be hearing the loudest shouters they should take as much information as possible. Speaking to constituents is a flawed poll. Elections can help but they are across wide ranging policies so still not concrete.
Referendums are an easy place to start. Once in a generation referendums are no-brainers. Read, interpret, action.
Report Injera December 16, 2017 9:09 AM GMT
Over 50% of Govt legislation comes from Brussels. Euro Comissioner for Justice reckons 75%.

Parliamentary Sovereignity does NOT exist for EU member states.

https://youtu.be/d777ffQ8vtc
Report lfc1971 December 16, 2017 10:29 AM GMT
There is no point putting the cart before the horse as melv does
You have to leave the EU first , and then we can elect whichever political party ,
Until we have left and most importantly stopped freedom of movement then it will be impossible for the British people
to rule and govern themselves .
Report lfc1971 December 16, 2017 10:33 AM GMT
There are things which are fundamental , such as the right of the British people to rule and govern themselves ,
And there are things which are derived , such as parliamentary sovereignty which is meaningless without the former

You should not mistake one for the other .
Report 1st time poster December 16, 2017 4:06 PM GMT
instead of mogg,boris,gove,bone etc having a go at green and co what are they going to do now Hammond has confirmed we,ll be in the EU in all but name till after the next election probably, will thry have the cohoona,s like green and co to vote against the government, cant believe these loon didn't see the writing on the wall in last weeks soon to be written in law backstop deal, this is all over besides a Canadian deal if we want it
Report 1st time poster December 16, 2017 4:26 PM GMT
cant believe how supposedly intelligent people like mogg,gove,davis,fox and co have been out manourvered by the remainers and soft brexiteers,they,ve been that worried about getting the green light to start talks they've agreed to a back stop deal for the irish and for the uk to remain in the staus quo eu during transition deal, all this will get an easy route through the commons due to labour supporting the government, only way for them now is to bring down their own government and let corbyn in,what a bunch of loons
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 4:31 PM GMT
bigpoppapump
15 Dec 17 17:27
Joined: 16 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 4,658 | Blogger: bigpoppapump's blog
26th June, 2016 - BJ perfectly clear that we would retain access to the SM.

...

Every country in the world has access to the single market. Everyone in the campaign said we would no longer be a member of it and freedom of movement of people would end. Corbyn was also very clear on this before the election.

Do the remainers understand the difference between having access and being a member of the SM?

As for 'demographic timebomb' in another post made by bigpop. Is unlimited immigration to the EU from countries like Eriteria really the answer to this 'problem'? Or is this an excuse as to why governments since 1997 have opened the borders? Is continuing the Malmo experiment for the whole of Europe the answer?

Surely if this was an issue we would invest more in encouraging two parent households with one parent to stay at home. A public investment policy in AI and robots is also essential so all the job taking tech does not end up in the hands of a few billionaires.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 6:52 PM GMT
Every country in the world has access to the single market.

Incorrect

The single market guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  No one but members have access to those freedoms.

Every non-member country can trade with members of the EU under either WTO rules or specific trade agreements.  Tariffs or complete restrictions on some types of trade may apply.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 7:15 PM GMT
Every country in the world has access to the single market.

Are you seriously trying to claim that, for instance, the USA has no access to the single market? It is unable to sell anything into the EU?
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:17 PM GMT
Yes I am trying to claim that.  You are confusing (deliberately?) the Single market with the EU.

I repeat:

The single market guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  No one but members have access to those freedoms.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:19 PM GMT
You never think for yourself at all Insider Trader and consequently get get out time and time again.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 7:27 PM GMT
Dave,

On this point you are clueless.

The only countries with no access to the single market are those who have sanctions applied to them by the EU.

Every other country can access it. Which countries without sanctions are not able to trade with the single market?
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:31 PM GMT
The single market guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  No one but members have access to those freedoms.

Name one non EU/EEA country that is guaranteed free movement of goods capital services and labour.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 7:38 PM GMT
Dave you fail to understand the difference between being a member (which is what you are talking about) and having access (i.e. being able to sell into it).

What do you think Corbyn meant by this:


Speaking in Brighton on Tuesday, he will say: “Labour respects the referendum result but we want a jobs-first Brexit that guarantees full access to the European single market as part of a new trade agreement and relationship with the EU.

“A jobs-first Brexit that maintains and develops workers’ rights, and consumer and environmental protections and uses powers returned from Brussels to support a new industrial strategy. A jobs-first Brexit where work pays, employees have security and decent conditions and prosperity is shared by the true wealth creators – that means all of us.”


Was he talking about being a full member of the Single Market with free movement of people etc or was he talking about access to the Single Market?
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:41 PM GMT
The single market guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  No one but members have access to those freedoms.

Name one non EU/EEA country that is guaranteed free movement of goods capital services and labour.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:43 PM GMT
In fact just name a non EU/EEA country that is guaranteed free movement of goods capital and services.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:46 PM GMT
btw if you trying to tempt me into saying Corbyn is a clueless idiot, you don't need to tempt.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 7:49 PM GMT
Dave, you are talking about membership of the single market. You are correct if you want to be a full member you have those 4 pillars.

To access the single market is a different matter. Non SM countries have access in the sense they can sell into it and buy goods/services from it.

(Unless they have sanctions against them).
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 7:53 PM GMT
In fact just name a country that is guaranteed free movement of goods capital and services?

e.g. Could a Maltese licensed bookmaker offer his services to UK customers?
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:56 PM GMT
There...is....no...such....thing....as...."access"...to...the....Single...Market

Merkel etc have been telling have cake and eat politicians and other assorted idiots this for months, but you can't seem to get it.

The Single Market is an exclusive club that guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  There are trade agreements etc to afford limited access to the EU trading bloc.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 7:59 PM GMT
Could a Maltese licensed bookmaker offer his services to UK customers?

Is that the best you've got?
Report moisok December 16, 2017 8:13 PM GMT
I do not know why you are working yourselves into a frenzy.  They just represent their own self interest.  They do not speak for you.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 8:15 PM GMT
The point is the single market for services is far from complete.

But lets go back.

You are now claiming there is no such thing as 'access' to the single market.

Are you just being difficult on a Saturday night looking for an online fight?

I give you the benefit of the doubt because you are so far unable to see the difference between membership and access.

You seem to be thinking access = membership

This BBC article may help you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36664857
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 8:25 PM GMT
This may also help you understand the difference between access and membership:

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/09/daniel-hannan-repeat-after-me-single-market-membership-and-single-market-access-are-not-the-same-thing.html
Report edy December 16, 2017 8:45 PM GMT
Commentators like to present simple, binary choices. But they are missing the real argument here. The case against membership of the single market is not that free movement of people is too high a price to pay for it; it’s that subjecting our entire economy to EU regulations harms growth.

cool
Report Wallflower December 16, 2017 8:48 PM GMT
Of course you can get access - but you pay for it. No pay. No get.

So to get access - you pay in and allow immigration of EU workers. In addition - you have to adopt swathes of EU regulations where relevant.

Back to square one for the Brexiteers. 

You can't have your cake and eat it. We have been repeatedly told this, but we are just not listening (ie. the arch-clown Davis on the  Marr showCry)- and won't until it comes up and bites us; just like the Irish border issue, they were telling us for 18 months!!

Also, we may not even be allowed access that Switzerland, Iceland get if it is seen as possibly detrimental to any of the EU27. So my guess in terms of financial passporting is that we'll be told to f*ck off as the big guns in the EU are looking for a big size of that pie.
Report 1st time poster December 16, 2017 8:57 PM GMT
its just about crept up on the likes of mogg and bone tht they've been stitched up by the likes of gove,boris davis, fox who,ve put cabinet careers before hard brexit,quick summary

davis putting into law that dublins gets a back up deal giving them full alignment with the EU,so to keep dup onside the uk leaves the EU in name only
transition period which could last till next election and beyond as stated by Hammond day and hinted at by may

both of the above is welcome by the EU  and 90% of the commons

only way either can be stopped is by a cabinet revolt and probably an election which lets corbyn in,so wont happen,

soft brexit,brexit in name only happens

cant see why the hard brexiteers cant see this and people on here,the dye is cast, and remainer may proves she was a hidden remoaner all a,long
Report 1st time poster December 16, 2017 8:58 PM GMT
ps treason may brexit doesn't mean brexit
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 9:01 PM GMT
Back to square one for the Brexiteers.

In what sense?

Voting for Brexit was about controlling our population size. It was about not allowing our services to be overstretched by open borders.

Both Labour and the Tories committed to doing this at the last election.

The MPs were remainers before the vote and are remainers now. They will do whatever they can to keep the borders open and the population of UK will get poorer and poorer as a result.

I was amazed anyone on the left of politics can support this nonsense. But now I am beginning to understand it. They want the poor unemployed. They want people dependant on welfare. They want single parent families. They want financial crashes.

Why? Because it give them more voters reliant on welfare cheques.

If people are doing well and have good prospects and are happy in their family life they would not vote for a Marxist PM in a million years.
Report edy December 16, 2017 9:13 PM GMT
Is it a remote possibility that Brexit, especially a hard one, would leave people quite a bit poorer at least in the near future and people then voting in a Marxist PM?
Report Wallflower December 16, 2017 9:13 PM GMT
Fair enough, perhaps not fully back to square one.  No deal is an option - and complete control and trading on WTO terms, and I think many would like that.

Access to Single Market - is back to square one. We wont be picking and choosing that's for sure.

(I do find the whole thing fascinating as to how it will play out - huge cast of "characters"  )
Report edy December 16, 2017 9:14 PM GMT
Maybe indeed the Hard Brexit supporters are the real perpetrators in regards to having a cunning masterplan to turn the UK into a Marxist state.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 9:15 PM GMT
The BBC article is incorrect in its terminology (which shouldn't surprise you, as you and your cronies are always dissing them).  They confuse limited trade with the EU with limited trade with single market participants.

Against my better judgement I scanned the Hannan article and basically he says nothing that changes my opinion, but gives me a clue where you get some of your strange ideas.  He says something in his title headline but later says:

Most people understand “single market” to mean something like “free trade zone”. In fact, in the EU context, it means “single regulatory regime”. Membership of the single market doesn’t mean the right to buy and sell there (pretty much the entire world can do that); it means accepting EU jurisdiction over your domestic technical standards.  He doesn't say why this is the case (it is necessary to allow free movement of goods capital services and labour) and bigs up third country access to the EU, but clearly if you had read the article rather than just the title, you would realise that he was saying that the Single Market is not something that is "accessed" at all.

So if you can't even read your own sources, it is pointless continuing this discussion.

The Single Market is an exclusive club that guarantees free movement of goods capital services and labour.  You are either part of the Single Market or not.  It isn't something "to be accessed" by third countries.


The EU negotiates trade deals as a bloc.  The UK will negotiate a trade deal with the EU that will have agree various aspects of limited trade with its members.  It is absurd to call this Single Market access.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 9:18 PM GMT
^to insider trader
Report 1st time poster December 16, 2017 9:21 PM GMT
wallflower your still not listening, listen carefully even under a no deal the irish have a backstop that keeps the aligned in all aspects to the EU, , so to keep the DUP happy the uk  will also be tied ,[aligned to the EU ],AT THE MOMENT ITS GOING TO BECOME LAW IF IT DOESNT THE TALKS WILL STOP, get it yet, after the work time to get the talks do you think may and her cabinet are going to  refuse to sign up to any  EU deal
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 9:23 PM GMT
Dave,

We have established that you refuse to accept what 'access' to the single market means. There is no point in discussing it further as you appear to think 'access' only applies if you are a member.

Given this want is that you want? Do you want us to remain members of single market and allowing the free movement of every single EU passport holder to the UK going forward? So in future if Germany or France, or Sweden or whoever decides to the open the gates of Europe in the years to come you are happy for the people they let in to come and live in the UK once they have their EU passports? You want to let any EU state decide who lives here?
Report edy December 16, 2017 9:30 PM GMT
The UK funnily enough has a higher percentage of its population born outside of the EU than France and Germany respectively.
Report Wallflower December 16, 2017 9:31 PM GMT
@ 1st time poster 

????????  Wasn't talking about that.  And I know - the NI thing will keep NI in SM/CU regardless if you ask me, and perhaps UK too.

(I'm confused if you meant that post to me)
Report edy December 16, 2017 9:34 PM GMT
It's also funnily enough easier to obtain citizenship in the UK than it is in Germany.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 9:42 PM GMT
lol even your pal Hannan says you are wrong.


So in future if Germany or France, or Sweden or whoever decides to the open the gates of Europe in the years to come you are happy for the people they let in to come and live in the UK once they have their EU passports? You want to let any EU state decide who lives here?

That is an issue, not really with the countries you mention, but the likes of Malta, Cyprus etc selling passports.  I know you are clearly homing in on Muslim refugees with your choice of countries (moisok will give you a pat on the back) but that isn't the issue.  The entire concept of citizenship is the issue.  It isn't even defined for existing citizens and it certainly should be very difficult for an economic refugee with no interest in integrating to obtain citizenship of any EU country.  But then Thatcher said there was no such thing as society.  That pretty much ended Britain.
Report moisok December 16, 2017 10:21 PM GMT
Do you actually think they represent any of you?
Report moisok December 16, 2017 10:22 PM GMT
It is like a medieval dance where every one has their strict positions and circulate around and around.
Report InsiderTrader December 16, 2017 11:23 PM GMT
Dave,

Where are you going with this?

You are anti-Corbyn, anti-Thatcher, pro-EU, anti-immigration from outside the EU and you think access to the single market is the same as membership of the single market.

You seem confused on a number of levels.
Report dave1357 December 16, 2017 11:32 PM GMT
I assure I'm not confused, but you appear to be.  Try thinking for yourself.  You claim to be well educated, you should be able to do it.
Report moisok December 17, 2017 8:58 AM GMT
I don't know what muslim has to do with it.  Anyone know?  Dave mentions it.
Report InsiderTrader December 17, 2017 9:14 AM GMT
dave1357
16 Dec 17 23:32
Joined: 05 Sep 10
| Topic/replies: 6,509 | Blogger: dave1357's blog
I assure I'm not confused, but you appear to be.  Try thinking for yourself.  You claim to be well educated, you should be able to do it.

This a nothing statement dropped in at the end!

You appear to think membership and access to the single market is the same thing. I encourage you to google it to enlighten yourself. I really cannot help you when you are unwilling to understand the basics.
Report dave1357 December 17, 2017 9:50 AM GMT
We have established that you refuse to accept what 'access' to the single market means. There is no point in discussing it further as you appear to think 'access' only applies if you are a member.

First lol at "We".  Then perhaps you should keep your word when you say "There is no point in discussing it further"
Report InsiderTrader December 17, 2017 10:01 AM GMT
So you do accept you can have access to the trading with countries in single market and this is different to 'membership' of the single market?
Report melv December 17, 2017 10:04 AM GMT
First lol at "We"


Freudian slip. Very revealing.
Report InsiderTrader December 17, 2017 10:11 AM GMT
melv,

What do you think access to the single market means?
Report melv December 17, 2017 10:29 AM GMT
As a remainer I obviously was happy with the free movement of Labour.

As an international socialist I back anyone fighting for  equal better  and fair pay and conditions everywhere.

I'd to know which politics;... those bstds who pay workers slave wages and no wages;.... adhere to. I very much doubt its the Labour party.
Report moisok December 17, 2017 11:01 AM GMT
I thought the Labour party and the movement paid slave wages as do the tory lot.  Or no wages at all.
The whole lot are corrupt anyway and do not speak for you are me.  Westminster needs to be dismantled.
Report moisok December 17, 2017 11:44 AM GMT
deflect away as hard as you can go - but it will be the same old lot (as our betters) telling us how to behave

start where the corruption starts - it is deep in the parliamentary system
Report Injera December 17, 2017 5:20 PM GMT
Why are Remainers so concerned about our exporters to the EU? (Re Single Market debate)

We have a massive trade deficit with the EU.

Currently, thanks to a cheaper (not weaker) pound, our exporters are in clover. Piling up profits, paying more tax.
Report unitedbiscuits December 17, 2017 5:31 PM GMT
Well, it's like this Injera, the cheaper (not weaker) pound makes everything you have - salary, pension, house, car, savings, betfair balance, etc - cheaper and weaker, internationally. You may not be poorer than your next door neighbour but you ARE poorer to everyone outside the UK.

Because of the Brexit vote: the day after ref saw the biggest one day fall for a major currency, since they floated:

www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-markets-sterling/sterlings-post-brexit-fall-is-biggest-loss-in-a-hard-currency-idUSKCN0ZN1R0

The pound has never recovered.
Thus Brexit makes paupers of us all.
Report Injera December 17, 2017 5:41 PM GMT
Are you a pauper?

a person without any means of support, especially a destitute person who depends on aid from public welfare funds or charity.

- enough with this fake news/project doom/bullsh*t.

Why do Remainers underestimate the British to make the best of Any circumstance? Why are you so obsessed with money? Wealth can be measured in many ways. Over population and control by a foreign unelected government is NOT one of them.
Report 1st time poster December 17, 2017 5:48 PM GMT
I saw that Grenfell ceremony last week and the bbc luvies in meltdown,what they call intergration,multiculturism etc, if I had to live in that tower block I,d walk straight to the top floor and jump off
Report unitedbiscuits December 17, 2017 5:55 PM GMT
My disaste for Brexit is not because of financial concerns -
Leavers have already lost the financial argument - need further proof? watch Sterling react to news of  "hard" Brexit (spoiler, it plunges) vs the "soft" Brexit (where it rockets).
My opposition to Brexit is that you don't solve a problem or get what you want by turning your back on it. We are not joining anything, we are leaving the European club for nothing. Do you think that the UK will be able to forge a sweetheart deal with China? Why? Why would China offer to more advantageous terms to a market much smaller? China already trades 450% more with Grermany than with the UK: don't you know that?
Report Injera December 17, 2017 7:24 PM GMT
So we (you) are not paupers. You retract that statement?

China sells into the EU without being part of the SM or CU.

There's no such thing as hard or soft Brexit. We either leave or stay. Sadly I think we will stay and democracy will be dead.
Report unitedbiscuits December 17, 2017 7:31 PM GMT
Of course I'm not a pauper Injera; I took appropriate steps at the start of th process. Many who voted for Brexit did not have that option - their householdswill be about £20,000 worse off, because of the Leave vote.
Report Injera December 17, 2017 8:05 PM GMT
Define 'many'.
Report unitedbiscuits December 17, 2017 8:19 PM GMT
Gladly, Injera.
This family live in a £200,000 provincial house and have two school-aged children.
Both parents work and pay into company pensions. Their mortgage house value has risen far slower than the London property market. Their wages have been stagnating since the financial crisis. They were encouraged to claim for mis-sold financial advice and have one bonus in the bank and another pending. They are also claiming whiplash injuries for themselves and their children.

Have I missed anything?
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