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unitedbiscuits
11 Dec 17 18:30
Joined:
Date Joined: 27 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 8,002 | Blogger: unitedbiscuits's blog
And work towards the Informed Referendum. 
When Brexit comes into focus, it will be time for the electorate to leave the darkroom and vote on the terms.
Democracy did not cease on 23/06/16 and world figures are already working selflessly on our behalf.
It must be good politics, as well as Christian,  for an enlightened administration in Brussells to leave the door ajar for us if we have a turn of heart.
Surely we can all agree on that.
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Report Burt06 December 11, 2017 6:47 PM GMT
We all agree that you are a complete madman.
Report trilby22 December 11, 2017 7:06 PM GMT
I agree with Burt.
Report Dr Crippen December 11, 2017 7:48 PM GMT
Thread 130 in the series.
Report unitedbiscuits December 11, 2017 7:51 PM GMT
Sad, yet we must continue to hold out an olive branch to the "just about managing."
Report lfc1971 December 11, 2017 11:17 PM GMT
I suppose everything is possible in biscuits world , even the most undignified things
Report Foinavon December 12, 2017 12:00 AM GMT
"an enlightened administration in Brussels" 
What a brilliant oxymoron. I'll have to remember that one.
Report Burt06 December 12, 2017 3:38 AM GMT
Is it really 130 threads?Shocked

Truly mad.Sad
Report trilby22 December 12, 2017 5:24 AM GMT
It's like the Mad Hatter's tea party in here at times Laugh
Report dom888 December 12, 2017 9:07 AM GMT
Rigt wing extremist supporting old bitter men dont wanna unite.
Report Dr Crippen December 12, 2017 9:14 AM GMT
Is it really 130 threads?

Absolutely, that's 130 anti-Brexit threads started by UB since the verdict of the EU referendum on 23 June 2016 were announced.

He wrote plenty in the run up to the referendum as well. If I had included them the figure would be much higher.
Report Dr Crippen December 12, 2017 9:21 AM GMT
Rigt wing extremist supporting old bitter men dont wanna unite.

You missed a word out of that description dom888, between bitter and men.

I doubt if Diane would have held back there.
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 9:46 AM GMT
a second referendum is a really bad idea for very similar reasons to the first referendum being a really bad idea
Report InsiderTrader December 12, 2017 9:49 AM GMT
A referendum on the terms on how we leave the EU would have to be clear.

1. Leave the EU under the terms the Government has negotiated.

or

2. Leave the EU with no deal.

Even then who decides if we hand over the £40bn? The chancellor or the David Davies?
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:05 AM GMT
it's an inappropriate subject for a referendum.

there's nothing wrong with direct democracy in principle - Switzerland has referendums all the time - but the way they are framed, and the subject itself, needs to adhere to certain characteristics.

"Should the UK leave the EU?" is a very simple question, but the implications of the question are vast, and the level of public education on the subject is sorely lacking.  Thus, it's something best left to our democratically elected representatives.

A second referendum would have the same problem.  A vote on the deal would not lend itself to a referendum because again, the implications are beyond the wider public's scope of understanding.  You'd get a "win" for a committed minority.  It's not an exercise in democracy but (often) a mask used by politicians with ulterior motives.  Our recent referendums have been text book examples of a politician using referendums for ulterior motives:

The Ref on PR - Cameron's deal with Clegg to grab power.  Very low turn-out. 
The Scottish Ref - Cameron again
The EU Ref - Cameron's fear of the rise of UKIP to 4m votes in 2015 and his right-wing press problem

a ref on the EU (or a deal to leave) are actually a single either/or vote on our entire economic-legal-international system.  It's mental.  We have politicians to decide these things.  We've spent 1,000 years of struggle to have a democracy whereby we get to vote for people to decide complex things for us.  Now we have facebook everybody thinks they are suddenly qualified to decide these things. 
An amazing thing the internet and facebook and what not.  But it hasn't made us cleverer.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:17 AM GMT
^ beeware of these great talents that bp tells us about ,
Sooner or later you have to protect yourself from them
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:21 AM GMT
correct.  you vote for them, or (if you disagree - this is the clever bit) you vote against them.
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:23 AM GMT
Take your points about the flaws in Government by referendum, bigpoppapump, but to start having them and then stop having them is even worse; it makes the damage irreversible. We have already reached the stage where the UK's wage-growth/inflation ratio is the worst of any major EU economy. To put it bluntly, our children are getting relatively poorer. It would be a black day if the positive half of the country accept this as a permanent legacy.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:25 AM GMT
certainly not , they are merely there to implement our wishes , nothing else
That's why we had a referendum
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:26 AM GMT
remain wouldn't win a second ref UB (and even if it did the result wouldn't justify the act of having one).

bad idea.
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:27 AM GMT
certainly not , they are merely there to implement our wishes , nothing else
That's why we had a referendum


this isn't true, by the way.  But you carry on.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:30 AM GMT
the referendum is not about the future , no one knows that .
Or even the countries past or present in tha sense , it is about the individuals past and present and hopes for the future
No one can know that better than the individual themselves
That is why no else is best positioned in a referendum , only the individual
Not some great takent , who may or may not be thinking about anything other than himself
People are like that .
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:35 AM GMT
bp let me explain an MPs role . It is to do what is in his manifesto
If course we allow them , for purely practical purposes , a limited time in which to work 5 years
and certain freedom and judgement because things and circumstances can change .
But we only allow that limited freedom for s very short time ,
And then if we don't like what has been done we get rid of them
So in that sense they have no freedom , they do as we tell them
Quite right
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:35 AM GMT
your making an obviously circular point based on a crazy notion:

your point:  nobody can know better than the individual what the the individual wants.

this is true

the flaw in your thinking is this: your logic assumes that what the individual desires (or thinks he desires) is possible.

and taken to a logical conclusion you'd have no rule of law - which is, after all, a set of instructions for living in society in a reasonable way so as not to impact others negatively.  Sometimes staying within the law means curbing the desire to have everything you want all the time.

put simply - lfc has the mind of a 6 year old (or an immature 8 year old).
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:37 AM GMT
if you don't like living in a democracy lfc, I suggest you go and live in a country where they don't bother electing their leaders.  see how that floats your boat.
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:38 AM GMT
bigpoppapump - I think Remain would win. Worsening circumstances, shifting demographics, dawning realisation: sunshine over concrete.
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:38 AM GMT
no chance UB.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:39 AM GMT
Bp English law for 500 years is what the English parliament says is the law
The parliament is subject to the people
Report dom888 December 12, 2017 10:40 AM GMT
I have heard hungary is a nice place for lfc. Right wing government and not many foreigners.
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:40 AM GMT
Some troll dug up a two-year old thread recently; lfc is all over it but his message was different, he was a Remainer then.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:41 AM GMT
You see no in a referendum you vote for what you think is best for you , very good
everyone else votes for what they think is best for them
What's wrong with that ?
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:44 AM GMT
lfc was pro remain?

Laugh
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:45 AM GMT
bigpoppapump - We have to be able to reverse bad ideas in the face of new facts. At least we would recognize what we were to be voting for in 2019.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:46 AM GMT
does someone sitting in a nice job, in a nice house , in a nice part of the country vote in a way that suits their own circumstance
And equally someone unemployed and living in a different set of circumstance see things the same way ?
No, why should they and why should anyone else think they should know better
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:46 AM GMT
I'm afraid so, lfc used to be a Remainer, bigpoppapump.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:48 AM GMT
Beware of these great talents who think they know best , sooner or later you have to tell them to ***** off
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:49 AM GMT
part true UB (that you're allowed to change your mind in the face of new evidence), but is not an argument for a referendum on EU membership.

There's no new facts by the way.  If the facts could be rubbished/ignored once, why do you think a second ref would be different? 

And many people are not voting on the basis of evidence.  Emotion is playing a major role (hence a bad idea for this subject to be covered by a referendum).  It's objectively (not my opinion) a massively technical thing.  It's not suitable for a referendum.  Or a second one, or a third or a fourth.

Have a referendum on designing a plane.  See if it flies. 

madness.
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:50 AM GMT
Laugh

that's made my day.  lfc was pro Remain.

Laugh

so crazy it's probably true.  Nobody could be making that up.

Laugh
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:52 AM GMT
But we have had the referendum and built the plane and the plane is on the runway and your children are boarding..
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:54 AM GMT
don't care UB. 

Repeating a terrible idea is not how you solve the problem caused by the terrible idea.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:54 AM GMT
bp a plane is one thing , and again it is up to the individual as to whether he wishes to fly
You see the are professions in which experts tend to be experts ,
And professions in which experts tend to be not experts

Don't confuse one with the other
Report bigpoppapump December 12, 2017 10:55 AM GMT
Laugh  lfc pro Remain.  Brilliant.
Report lfc1971 December 12, 2017 10:59 AM GMT
I would have found it almost impossible to vote remain , no sensitive person could do so
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 10:59 AM GMT
No, it is not up to your children whether they want to fly, you have bought their tickets and packed their parachutes.
Report Dr Crippen December 12, 2017 10:59 AM GMT
UB strikes me as someone who knows his place.

His betters always know best. So he follows their lead through thick and thin.

You see, although he votes Labour as a matter of routine hoping for better welfare benefits, when it comes to things like voting on the EU, the words of toffs like Cameron and Clegg have a very strong influence on his decisions.

Because for UB his betters always know best, and UB knows his place.
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 11:12 AM GMT
Dr Crippen is like a dog, you can train a dog to look at a clock, but you can't make it tell the time. People round his way can't even get the AW racing on when there's a bit of frost.
Report Dr Crippen December 12, 2017 11:58 AM GMT
That would still put me in front of you UB.

At least I could find the clock.
Report 1st time poster December 12, 2017 2:09 PM GMT
UB states that those who want to keep the status quo are the positive side of the country,doesnt logic dictate its the complete opposite of that, brexiteers thinking the uk can do better without Europe,make better deals with the rest of the world etc.etc
Report unitedbiscuits December 12, 2017 6:28 PM GMT
Nobody really buys the buccaneering "Global Britain" bulls**t, outside this country. We are not building or joining anything. The more honest Brexiteers freely admit that they want to destroy the EU. Turns out we aren't important enough to make that happen, so turning our backs on the EU just makes us look peevish to the rest of the world.
Report Burt06 December 12, 2017 8:03 PM GMT
What George said then

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EfvR7S7r_0&sns=fb

Still applies now.

And of course makes a mockery of everything Biscuitbrain says. Although, tbf, that aint hard.
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