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ZenMaster
17 Nov 16 19:03
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Date Joined: 24 Mar 16
| Topic/replies: 4,024 | Blogger: ZenMaster's blog
More than 50% of American female voters are on his side though Tony.

If you was chatting to 5 women in the pub, my guess would be that 3 would be turned off.
The other two could be blind drunk, but hey that's only 40%
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Report InsiderTrader July 17, 2017 7:17 PM BST
Whats that got to do with the 'consensus' that CO2 emissions made by man will cause the planet to warm up more and more and that this will cause a terrible situation?
Report Fatslogger July 17, 2017 8:10 PM BST

Jul 17, 2017 -- 12:16PM, InsiderTrader wrote:


Mainly machine learning. The climate models are not using any of the latest tech that is available. Even if they were they are simply too many unknowns to model. One slight change in your assumptions and whole outcome changes.It is a massive case of the politics and business getting ahead of the actual evidence.It is not like learning maths, or English or basic physics. Its political. That is why Gove tried to get it out of schools back in 2013. He failed and it is still being pushed to point no one in the next generation will dare to challenge it.


Okay, so what does the evidence tell you? You're not an expert in climate but you still know that those who are are wrong because their models aren't robust?

I'm assuming Breedingmad's point was that there might be quite a lot of benefits to managing to find renewable energy sources even if climate change science is wrong.

Report InsiderTrader July 17, 2017 8:17 PM BST
Exactly FS,

If they are basing policy on model predictions and the models are wrong what is the point? There is no ability to test out of sample.

In betting if we change models to fit the data we would always lose yet this is what they do.

Another example here:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/climate-models-overestimated-temperature-rises-scientists/news-story/3df40de24758698cba22d98743d4e4c5

If that is Breedingmad's point it might be a fair one. But the argument should be made on that basis. Not on these models that are hopeless at prediction.
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 7:45 PM BST
www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-met-russian-accused-of-laundering-14-b...
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 7:49 PM BST
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trumps-and-the-truth-1500332545
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 7:50 PM BST
its all coming apart now....Laugh
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 7:51 PM BST
www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-met-russian-accused-of-laundering-14-b...
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 7:51 PM BST
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trumps-and-the-truth-1500332545
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 11:06 PM BST
thehill.com/homenews/administration/342589-ian-bremmer-trump-and-putin-held-...
Report tony57 July 18, 2017 11:09 PM BST
trump meets putin again with no press and only putins translator??
Report lfc1971 July 18, 2017 11:31 PM BST
I hope you have the good grace to apologise to the president for all your wild talk when you are proven to be wrong tony.
Report spyker July 19, 2017 9:31 AM BST
I'm sure there is nothing wrong with this meeting and Trump will be able to recall exactly what was said and by whom - if not he can ask Putin for the transcript of what Putin says was said..........
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 9:53 AM BST
Tony what exactly has the President of the United States done wrong with chatting to the leader of Russia?

Is this your smoking gun... wait for it...

Trump chats to Putin!

They are both heads of states. Why can they not talk to each other?
Report tony57 July 19, 2017 10:00 AM BST
just for you to understand IT it was not disclosed? until they were forced too? its not done to speak to someone like putin without another person there to verify what was said from your own side? to just have putins man makes no sense to anyone with experiance of these occasions and matters..then its who its with?..
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:02 AM BST
Putin is a potential ally against Americas enemies.
It is important that Trump speaks with him.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 10:06 AM BST
Not disclosed!!

A dinner in a room with 20 world leaders in and you say it is not disclosed.

You really are quite deluded Tony if you think this is somehow illegal.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 10:10 AM BST
Trumps wife was next to Putin at the dinner. Should she have not talked to him either through Putin's translator?
Report tony57 July 19, 2017 10:10 AM BST
not in secret not when all the facts are showing the lies and deceit from trump , remember americans are very worried as last time trump met with top russians he gave away secrets about isis?as many now belive putin has something on trump this only enforces such opinions..i myself have always said ..money trump launderd russian money before he was potus..this is why he is the way he is..its why he wont show his taxes...and its why THE WALL STREET JOURNAL  top conservative paper owned by his friend murdoch is telling him to tell the truth now before its to late..because mueller will get his tax returns..
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:12 AM BST
Its other Americans Trump has to worry about, not Putin.
Report tony57 July 19, 2017 10:13 AM BST
thats stupid..she was not involved in the hour long meeting..you really are so foolish and childish..when ever its pointed out trumps stupidity and wrong doing you move to some silly claim ..if this meeting is nothing WHY HIDE IT ..WHY HAVE IT WITH ONLY PUTINS MAN AND HIM WHY NOT ANOTHER AMERICAN ?  anyone with common sense can see how this is..
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:15 AM BST
they need to hold talks together, just the two men.
that is very important in building a relationship between the countries.
Report tony57 July 19, 2017 10:15 AM BST
lfc..bye.
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:16 AM BST
now if you don't understand that tony I feel you are being unfair.
Report spyker July 19, 2017 10:27 AM BST
Anyone that thinks this second meeting is normal is clearly naïve beyond belief! Obv just having a meeting at such a summit is no big deal - a child can argue that. However having an hour long discussion with any leader/person of significance in any circumstance (let alone being the President of America meeting the Russian leader ffs) and not having your own representative there to translate and note what was said shows, at the very least extremely poor judgement on Trumps part. To then not mention this meeting in the current climate again, at the very least, shows incredibly poor judgement on Trump's part. They may have just talked about naked judo but nobody, other than the Russin's will ever know will they - if you genuinely think that is the normal way to conduct international diplomacy (obv it isn't illegal but no one is saying that) then no wonder you all voted brexit!
Nope nowt to see here - i do hope the brexit negs are conducted in such a way so none of you can complain about it...........
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:36 AM BST
Trump and Putin will be judged on their actions, not on their private discussions.
Should there be private discussions? yes, and then we can see and judge.
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 10:37 AM BST
we will judge the brexit negotiations on the outcome. They can have as many private discussions as they wish.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 11:00 AM BST
How can a meeting be secret if it is in front of 20 world leaders, their wives and countless other people?

This is beyond fake news now.

Its a witch hunt.

This is the BBC:

US President Donald Trump and his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, had another, previously undisclosed conversation at this month's G20, the White House has confirmed.
They spoke towards the end of a formal dinner but the White House has not revealed what was discussed.
President Trump has condemned media revelations of the talks as "sick".
The two leaders' relationship is under scrutiny amid allegations of Russian interference in the US election.
US intelligence agencies believe Moscow tried to tip the election in Mr Trump's favour, something denied by Russia. Mr Trump has rejected allegations of any collusion.
Russia: The 'cloud' over the Trump White House
Trump and Putin: Comparing the men
The extra conversation happened during a private meal of heads of state at the G20 summit in Hamburg earlier in the month.
Mr Trump left his seat and headed to Mr Putin, who had been sitting next to Mr Trump's wife, Melania, US media said. The US president was alone with Mr Putin, apart from the attendance of the Russian president's official interpreter.
Mr Trump had been seated next to Japanese PM Shinzo Abe's wife, so the US interpreter at the dinner spoke Japanese, not Russian. No media were in attendance.
Analysis: Uncomfortable questions raised
Jonathan Marcus, BBC News defence and diplomatic correspondent
Given the poor state of relations between Washington and Moscow and the controversy surrounding Russia's efforts to interfere with the US presidential campaign, each and every encounter between Mr Putin and Mr Trump is bound to be carefully scrutinised.
Thus the apparently impromptu discussion between the two men at the G20 dinner inevitably raises many questions. What was President Trump seeking to do in approaching the Russian president? Were matters of substance discussed? If so, why was no formal note taken? And why did the US president have to rely upon a Russian official for translation?
This is all highly unusual, especially at a time when relations between the two countries are laden with so many problems.
Mr Trump also appeared unaware of another dimension - the message that his tete-a-tete would send to other leaders in the room, who must have watched the US president's gambit with some unease.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40651502
...

Undisclosed chat in front of dozens of people!

Beyond a joke this is even being reported.

How many chats between G20 leaders were there at that dinner?

How many are all over the press with transcripts officially recorded?

The left and the globalists are get more desperate by the day throwing everything it Trump.

It is making them look stupid.
Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 11:04 AM BST
very good post insidertrader.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 12:00 PM BST
Tony,
Was this chat at dinner secret?
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 12:20 PM BST
Trump's wife was sitting next to Putin. Trump cannot walk over and chat? This really is pathetic.

How many hotmics have been heard from politicians through history? How many private chats happen? Suddenly Trump is not allowed to chat to anyone without the deep state and Globalists getting a transcript?
Report Fatslogger July 19, 2017 12:44 PM BST
Agree with spyker's post on this: displays at best very poor judgement and frank stupidity. Nobody has attempted to deal with spyker's points, because it's far easier to be knocking down straw men. It wasn't a brief chat over dinner - they talked for an hour. In other circumstances, perhaps ones where Russia hadn't intervened in Trump's favour in the election; he hadn't given secrets directly to the Russians and his son, son in law and campaign director hadn't tried to collude with Russians and repeatedly lied about it, this would just be rather odd, poorly judged and not much more would be made of it. In the actual context, it's hard not to think that Trump is either a moron or actively trying to provoke additional controversy.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 1:04 PM BST
FS and spyker,

So what you are saying is Trump could not talk to anyone at the G20 dinner who did not speak English or Japanese (Only allowed one translator and Trump's spoke Japanese)?

Was it ok for Trump's wife sitting next to Putin to talk through Putin's translator? Or was that bad judgement as well? Maybe best she just sat there and said nothing?
Report Fatslogger July 19, 2017 1:27 PM BST
You like your straw men, don't you? If you were getting bucket loads of flak for your ties to the Russians, would you attempt to reinforce that narrative by having an unusually long, initially unrevealed and unrecorded conversation with Putin, unaccompanied by any non Russian, or would you be a bit careful about it? 

While we're here, you never got back to me on any of the things Trump was getting done keeping his campaign promises about the wall, health care and locking Clinton up.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 1:47 PM BST
FS,

It is a room with G20 heads, their partners and one translator for each G20 head sitting behind if required.

The setup is clear from the photo:

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170719084734-01-g20-dinner-trump-putin-0707-exlarge-169.jpg


Trump's wife was sitting next to Putin. You can surely see this. She does not have a translator. It all looks very informal.

Trump's wife had no translator. She is talking to Putin through his translator. Bad?

Trump bad for walking round a talking to his wife and Putin?

Every single conversation at the dinner had a transcript?

This an open room. Their were never any other officals there. It is an informal dinner.

If Trump had spoken to Merkel through her translator would you guys be complaining?

If Merkel's translator was German to English could she not speak to the Japanese?
Report tony57 July 19, 2017 1:50 PM BST
https://www.justsecurity.org/43270/trump-campaign-collude-russia-defeat-republican-opponents-gop-primary/

Russia’s election interference during the Republican primary

Before we explore whether the Trump team was working with Russia during the primaries, it’s worth briefly reviewing the Russian government’s overall involvement in in the 2016 GOP primaries. Russian election interference reportedly took effect during the primaries in an effort to undercut GOP candidates whose positions were hostile to Moscow’s interests and, more specifically, in an effort to boost Donald Trump. The Russian operation included (at least) two prongs: a propaganda effort to spread fake news and cyber operations to steal confidential information.

When exactly did the Russian influence campaign begin? In an interview with Just Security, former FBI special agent Clint Watts explained that the Russian approach to its influence campaign involved an earlier starting point than many assume. Watts said:

“What many people miss is that a first principle of effective information wars is to win over the audience first. The Russians developed an alt-right audience in the United States, including testing how they would respond to different messages, well before the primaries began. The Russians were then ready for whichever candidate suited them.”
During a March 30, 2017 Senate Intelligence Committee hearing, Watts testified about how the Russian operation took shape once the primary got underway:

“Through the end of 2015 and start of 2016, the Russian influence system began pushing themes and messages seeking to influence the outcome of the U.S. presidential election. Russian’s overt media outlets and covert trolls sought to sideline opponents on both sides of the political spectrum with adversarial views towards the Kremlin. They were in full swing during both the Republican and Democratic primary season that may have helped sink the hopes of candidates more hostile to Russian interests long before the field narrowed.”
Departing from his written testimony, Watts told Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), “in my opinion, you anecdotally suffered from these measures.” Following the hearing, Watts told reporters, that the Russian activities were combined in the form of “pumping up Trump while tamping down the others,” and specifically identified Rubio, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), and Jeb Bush.

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Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 1:59 PM BST
Oh come on Tony. Not Clint Watts again! Surely you can do better than this. You are just recycling now.

Glad to see you have given up on the chat at dinner complaint.
Report Fatslogger July 19, 2017 2:57 PM BST

Jul 19, 2017 -- 7:47AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


FS,It is a room with G20 heads, their partners and one translator for each G20 head sitting behind if required.The setup is clear from the photo:http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170719084734-01-g20-dinner-tr... wife was sitting next to Putin. You can surely see this. She does not have a translator. It all looks very informal.Trump's wife had no translator. She is talking to Putin through his translator. Bad? Trump bad for walking round a talking to his wife and Putin?Every single conversation at the dinner had a transcript? This an open room. Their were never any other officals there. It is an informal dinner. If Trump had spoken to Merkel through her translator would you guys be complaining?If Merkel's translator was German to English could she not speak to the Japanese?


As I say, your questions are straw men and you've not answered mine. Trump is entitled to talk to whomever he likes. Personally I don't think this is a terribly big deal but you'd have to be wilfully blind not to see that it looks a bit dodgy for him to have a long one to one with Putin, given the context. Quite possibly they were just talking about how fit Macron's wife is but I do think it's revealing that Trump didn't see how this might look bad, or didn't care.

Still waiting on my other questions, by the way.

Report lfc1971 July 19, 2017 3:16 PM BST
given the context of the meeting you would have to be wilfully blind not to see that it appears innocent and innocuous and unremarkable.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 3:23 PM BST
The dinner lasted several hours. He will have talked to lots of people that didnt not speak english or japanese. I really do not see a problem with him chatting to Putin or Macron or Merkel or any of the 16 leaders there. It was not a private meeting.

The only people thinking twice about this is the press and some Obama trouble makers.

You are question is it is dodgy? no it was a dinner for 40 people that everyone knew about. Dodgy would be meeting alone in an airplane on the tarmac with no records.

Personally if I think if Putin and Trump get along that is a good thing for the world.

Where were the officials here:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/81081000/jpg/_81081431_32bf743f-cda2-4ba0-a952-1318fe2bbb64.jpg

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/10/1415636870780/Reagan-Thatcher-wheatcrof-012.jpg?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=b40066cf37cb18349ce5eca115a09b05
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 3:31 PM BST
Breaking news:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3VV3oLlWJs

1 minute into this video at the G20 Trump is speaking to someone without any Americans with him.

Spoiler alert it is not Putin.
Report dave1357 July 19, 2017 4:40 PM BST
tony - don't engage Trumpists like Insider Trader in conversation.  There is no point.  They can't see that the man is obviously mentally impaired and a dreadful danger to his country, they will never be convinced
Report Fatslogger July 19, 2017 5:21 PM BST
So still no direct answer on whether Trump should have been a bit careful about a private chat with Putin given the extent of his links Tom Russia although I'm guessing IT's answer is no and still no answer to the earlier questions about Trump's agenda, unless I missed a post.
Report InsiderTrader July 19, 2017 6:15 PM BST
A private chat in a room of 40+ people with TV cameras? Absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. No he was not stupid to do it.
Report Fatslogger July 20, 2017 7:55 AM BST

Jul 19, 2017 -- 12:15PM, InsiderTrader wrote:


A private chat in a room of 40+ people with TV cameras? Absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. No he was not stupid to do it.


Okay, disagree but as mentioned, I don't think this is a big deal. Health care, on the other hand...

Probably better for Trump that the bill has failed given that it went entirely against his campaign promises to extend Medicaid and would actually have cut it dramatically (in order to fund tax cuts for the wealthy and huge tax cuts for the very wealthy).

Report InsiderTrader July 20, 2017 7:59 AM BST
Health care I am not sure what he can do.

The Republicans and dems are against what he wants to do for different reasons.

The Republicans have never been in favor of giving the 20m healthcare.

So it looks like it will be impossible for the President alone to do anything.
Report pxb July 20, 2017 8:34 AM BST
The Republicans have never been in favor of giving the 20m healthcare.

Giving??

Those 20 million don't want healthcare insurance, being overwhelmingly young and healthy.

The whole point of Obamacare was to force them to pay for other people's healthcare. We have a similar situation in Australia, where if you don't take out private healthcare insurance when you are under 30, you are slugged with extra taxes.
Report lfc1971 July 20, 2017 8:38 AM BST
it is necessary to tax people who don`t need healthcare, that is the best and most affordable system.
Report lfc1971 July 20, 2017 8:46 AM BST
and a complete separation between private and NHS healthcare.
in everything including social care.
Report lfc1971 July 20, 2017 8:52 AM BST
When a country has two systems, private and state, that are linked and in co operation this drives costs up.
if they are separate and in competition this drives costs down.
Report lfc1971 July 20, 2017 8:53 AM BST
In Britain the two are linked, and in collusion.
driving costs up.
Report pxb July 20, 2017 9:07 AM BST
and a complete separation between private and NHS healthcare.
in everything including social care.


Indeed that is the best system. And the UK is probably closer than anyone else.

The problem is that with anything that is free or heavily subsidised, demand exceeds supply, and rationing is necessary. Combine that with the 80:20 rule. Where 20% of the consumers result in 80% of the costs, then the most rationing is required of what is most expensive. To the point some things are not provided at all, or in tiny quantities relative to demand.

Then there is constant agitation to increase the supply of this or that service.

The solution is is to implement a hard spending cap and leave it up to the professionals, but it will be a brave politician who will tell a sick child 'I'm sorry, but saving your life will cost too much.'
Report InsiderTrader July 20, 2017 9:27 AM BST
pxb those 20 million people surely are the people that could not afford health insurance before Obamacare?
Report pxb July 20, 2017 11:01 AM BST
pxb those 20 million people surely are the people that could not afford health insurance before Obamacare?

You may have been sold that line, but like Australia, Obamacare had to impose heavy financial penalties on the young to make those 20 million take out insurance to pay for other people's healthcare.

From Wlkipedia,

Medicaid in the United States is a social health care program for families and individuals with limited resources. The Health Insurance Association of America describes Medicaid as a "government insurance program for persons of all ages whose income and resources are insufficient to pay for health care".[1] Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with low income in the United States, providing free health insurance to 74 million low-income and disabled people
Report pxb July 20, 2017 11:05 AM BST
Note the 'free' and '74 million'.
Report tony57 July 20, 2017 12:30 PM BST
i understand dave1357..i know this, im just happy showing how daft these people are..they remind me of the cult of scientoligy? when ever wrongdoing is reported they attack the person who has been wronged? trump has said he can fix healthcare?only he can do it?first its a great bill, then its mean, then theres a party to say this is great? trump says all is good? now its the democrats , its all there fault?Laugh..republicans have all the power in washington...
Report tony57 July 20, 2017 12:37 PM BST
www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/nyt-trump-warns-mueller-don-t-delve-in-finances...
Report tony57 July 20, 2017 12:40 PM BST
www.newsweek.com/trump-warns-mueller-against-investigation-shares-anger-sess...
Report tony57 July 20, 2017 12:41 PM BST
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/us/politics/trump-interview-transcript.html
Report InsiderTrader July 20, 2017 1:07 PM BST
tony57,

That is the whole point. Trump is up against the establishment in Washington.

Both the Dems and Reps did not want him.

They wanted to keep the status quo gravy train.

Like the MPs in this country mainly opposing Brexit.

If it was up to the MPs we would never get Brexit. Same case with Trump and healthcare.

I find it interesting you keep shifting the debate on when one of your MSM based talking points falls apart.
Report Breedingmad July 20, 2017 1:40 PM BST
Trump is all about draining the swamp and replacing it with another narcissistic based swamp.
Report tony57 July 20, 2017 2:41 PM BST
uk.businessinsider.com/trump-hired-hundreds-of-former-lobbyists-for-governme...
Report pxb July 20, 2017 11:03 PM BST
Trump, like many succesful businessmen, is a disruptor. If he stays the course, I expect he will go a long way to draining the swamp despite the establishment's opposition. However, I think he may decide it is all to hard, and throw in the towel.
Report Fatslogger July 21, 2017 11:34 PM BST

Jul 20, 2017 -- 7:07AM, InsiderTrader wrote:


tony57,That is the whole point. Trump is up against the establishment in Washington. Both the Dems and Reps did not want him. They wanted to keep the status quo gravy train. Like the MPs in this country mainly opposing Brexit.If it was up to the MPs we would never get Brexit. Same case with Trump and healthcare.I find it interesting you keep shifting the debate on when one of your MSM based talking points falls apart.


Don't buy this narrative, certainly around health care, where the Republican establishment has been rabidly anti Obamacare. They didn't sabotage getting a bill through because they don't like Trump. They've screwed up repeal and replace because, somewhat oddly, their leadership managed to produce a bill that failed to get the full support of either the more liberal wing of the Republican Party (still very right wing indeed by UK and European standards) or the lunatic Freedom Caucus. That it was staggeringly unpopular with the public clearly didn't help. I actually don't think most of this was Trump's fault, as complex policy making was never going to be something he was going to be competent to be involved in. Did anyone else hear him talk about the bill? He clearly had no clue about even broad brush stuff, let alone details.

My previous point about this was more that clearly Trump was incapable of getting most of his policy agenda through, in various contexts because he didn't have a policy agenda, or didn't have one that could be discerned through his multiple contradictory statements and in others, such as health care, because what he'd said he'd do would have been impossible  for anything short of a political genius with a forest of money trees.

Report Fatslogger July 21, 2017 11:43 PM BST

Jul 20, 2017 -- 5:01AM, pxb wrote:


pxb those 20 million people surely are the people that could not afford health insurance before Obamacare?You may have been sold that line, but like Australia, Obamacare had to impose heavy financial penalties on the young to make those 20 million take out insurance to pay for other people's healthcare. From Wlkipedia,Medicaid in the United States is a social health care program for families and individuals with limited resources. The Health Insurance Association of America describes Medicaid as a "government insurance program for persons of all ages whose income and resources are insufficient to pay for health care".[1] Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for people with low income in the United States, providing free health insurance to 74 million low-income and disabled people


It's a different group of people. The estimated 20m who'd have been taken out of Medicaid weren't young fit people being forced to pay for health insurance. Certainly though, Obamacare does force plenty of people to pay more to extend coverage for others. It's clearly a worse way of doing it than most other insurance based systems but Obama was starting from a hideously unfair, expensive and entrenched mess. Insurance systems of all kinds are fairly widely accepted as being less fair and less efficient than socialised systems like the NHS, which offers terrific value for money. Which is not to say those systems don't have their own massive problems.

On the subject of political interference in the NHS, I'm rather conflicted. The problem is that you can't easily just take politics out of health care and leave it in the hands of an arms length body because then how do you regulate and control that body and how do you determine funding, which is going to be coming from the government? Having said that, the habitual redisorganisation of the NHS makes some kind of protection very appealing indeed.

Report pxb July 22, 2017 12:12 AM BST
Slogger, as I noted below, Australia went down the same road as Obamacare some years earlier, by forcing healthy people who don't want insurance to buy it, effectively subsidizing those people who do want/need it.

I actually agree with you that socialized medicine is the best value for money system. And as I also noted a two tier socialized and private system would be the best solution, but the problem is politicians would continually give in to demands to fund this, that or whatever. Hence my proposal to keep politicians well away from any decisions on how the allocated money should be spent.

I won't get into the American political system, except to say US political parties, especially Republicans, aren't political parties in the sense a European would understand them. They are really loose alliances, and the Party can't tell law makers how to vote as they would in the UK.

Although, Obamcare was a widely hated and unsustainable. Most Americans want the government involved in healthcare insurance for everyone, just not the way Obama did it. And not just for the poor and old as at present.
Report pxb July 22, 2017 8:46 PM BST
Slogger, this may interest you.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-22/does-britain-have-worlds-best-health-system-only-if-you-ignore-outcomes
Report Breedingmad July 25, 2017 9:10 AM BST
What a beautiful thread no fake news here Folks remember they said nobody read the politics forum..FAKE NEWS..
don't believe the media who say only 1 person is viewing this thread I was looking at the thread only the
other day with my Family it said one viewer there you have it Folks Fake News.Let's make this forum Ache again.
Report Fatslogger July 25, 2017 4:29 PM BST

Jul 22, 2017 -- 2:46PM, pxb wrote:


Slogger, this may interest you.http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-22/does-britain-have-worlds-best-health-system-only-if-you-ignore-outcomes


Interesting but profoundly flawed polemic. Don't even know where to start with it, really and may just make a couple of key points in rebuttal.

1.  The argument about free health care removing the incentive not to seek treatment is to an extent a fair one but actually applies far more to non socialised health care systems than the NHS, which will essentially tell you to get lost if you don't meet clinical criteria, including particularly those specified by the admirably conceived and evidence driven NICE. In paid systems there isn't just an incentive for the patient to get something for free once he's paid for insurance but also, more crucially, a perverse incentive for the provider to offer ineffective or even harmful investigations and treatments, because that's how they maximise income. Insurers try to combat this, of course, with more or less success but it's hard to battle against the drive from both patients and providers to do more.

2. If the central thesis is that you judge a health system by health outcomes, then while that's superficially attractive, it ignores the fact that public health is not largely the preserve of health care systems. The single biggest change to health outcomes in history, for example, was the development of sewage systems to protect drinking water from contamination. What people eat, drink, smoke and how much they exercise is, if it's in any way the responsibility of public policy (I suspect the author might argue that it isn't), isn't that of health care systems but of wider government. The debate on minimum unit pricing of alcohol in the U.K. is a pertinent example. For example, a large proportion of patients dying of myocardial infarction will be dead at home or in the street without having had any recent contact with health services at all beforehand. The prevalence of the Mediterranean diet in Spain (used in the article) and the Grant C King diet in the U.K. probably account for the difference in outcomes far more than the respective health systems.

Report dave1357 July 26, 2017 2:38 PM BST
Our military must be focused on decisive and overwhelming ... victory and cannot be burdened with the tremendous medical costs and disruption that transgender in the military would entail.

He has also decided to stop the military fighting as getting wounded has been identified as the main source of "tremendous medical costs".
Report salmon spray July 26, 2017 3:30 PM BST
He's mad
End of thread.
Report InsiderTrader July 26, 2017 3:59 PM BST
SS,

That is out of order. Tony has not posted on here for several days.
Report salmon spray July 26, 2017 6:05 PM BST
Grin
Report tony57 January 5, 2018 4:14 PM GMT
happy to say ...i told you...LOL
Report Dr Crippen January 5, 2018 5:53 PM GMT
Nah tony, just another chapter in the Trump accuse and refute saga.
Report tony57 January 9, 2018 10:37 PM GMT
think you should read FUSION GPS  glen simpson, under oath, that has just been released crippen..i,ll just leave it with you..

time.com/5095773/glenn-simpson-trump-dossier-senate-transcript-fusion-gps/
Report tony57 January 11, 2018 9:42 PM GMT
now says he has good relationship with kim jong un...
tps://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-signals-openness-to-north-korea-diplomacy-in-interview-1515705497
Report Dr Crippen January 12, 2018 1:10 PM GMT
Bloke on the radio last night who used to write speeches for Ronald Reagan.

Said he didn't particularly care for Trump, but the results Trump is getting with the economy and his success with foreign policy would see him easily through his first term in office. Regardless of anything he's supposed to have tweeted.

He says most of the stuff he's credited with saying is false anyway or is taken out of context.
Which is the same as the material in your links tony.

Not worth reading because they're all fake news.
Report moisok January 12, 2018 1:27 PM GMT
The big problem is the support he gets.  We on the left simply have no answer.  But then the clintons/democrats are hardly left or hardly democratic are they. Especially after what they did to bernie sanders.  I wonder how the billion dollar clinton foundation is going - do you see what I mean?
In the party over here we have big problems as most of the old PLP are still there so even if corby gets elected I do not see big changes.
Report tony57 January 13, 2018 4:58 PM GMT
crippen..the sad thing is you still defend the indefensable..mueller will take most of trumps team out in the coming months..getting trump is another matter as its not easy to go after a potus..mueller is 5 steps ahead of everyone else..only crippen can say .. getting 2 guilty pleas from trumps team..one flynn his nsa ..and having him giving evidence against trump..is fake news....the dossier been proven correct (as i said it would be) the fbi were on to trump before the steele dossier..the republicans know trump is dirty....lets not forget..all the people investigating trump..are republicans...as for his economy..he has made the stoke market go massive..but as for anything else obama had better job numbers and left him great economy...crippen you are fake news because you cannot grasp what is going on around you...
Report tony57 January 13, 2018 5:09 PM GMT
Collusion: How Russia Helped Trump Win the White House Paperback – 16 Nov luke harding

great read ..crippen it,ll help you Cool
Report tony57 January 13, 2018 9:47 PM GMT
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rosemaryfanelli/2018/01/12/follow-the-money/#77...
Report tony57 January 18, 2018 2:42 PM GMT
www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article195231139.html

fbi now investigating the NRA RECIVING RUSSIAN MONEY FOR TRUMP..
Report tony57 January 18, 2018 2:44 PM GMT
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/16/steve-bannon-congress-testimony-subpoena-341492

nothing to see here..LOL..

trump now telling bannon and others not to answer questions...
Report bigpoppapump January 18, 2018 2:48 PM GMT
sit tight Tony.  You don't need to rub it in - they already accept we've gone beyond nothing-to-see-here

I'm looking forward to the firing of mueller and how they sell that to themselves.
Report InsiderTrader January 18, 2018 2:50 PM GMT
5.4 for Trump to leave office this year.

Put your money where your mouths are if you truely believe fake news.
Report bigpoppapump January 18, 2018 2:52 PM GMT
says the man who thinks Corbyn will bring in death squads.
Report tony57 January 18, 2018 3:04 PM GMT
hi bigpop...
im laughing at the num nuts who said there was no collusion, no conspiricy, bannon blew t them all up in that book and at least was honest about that meeting TREASON..LOL mueller is 5 steps ahead of everyone he knows things we dont know..the republicans have sold there soul..but mark my words they will fight to the death to save him cos they are all implicated...the other big thing is the democratic wave that is coming against trump in november..democrats have won in places they havent for 20 yrs..they will flip both houses..then trump is finnished..you think when the dems hold the power it wont ALL COME OUT..
Report tony57 January 18, 2018 6:02 PM GMT
2015 at a campaign event trump said .."i know putin, i,ll tell you, we,ll get along with putin if im president i see no need for sanctions" at that campaign event trump met a putin envoy a russian mobster called alex torshin..who gave money to the NRA...the fbi are now investigating why the NRA gave trump 30m..but romney only got 10m when he ran for potus..the russian conections are everywere..did the nra give trump the money from tushin..the russians always use a third  party...mueller is close..
Report tony57 January 18, 2018 6:42 PM GMT
foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/18/trump-ordered-bannon-to-limit-testimony/
Report Dr Crippen January 19, 2018 10:39 AM GMT
Like everything else you've written on this thread tony, from all the slanderous comments to the links on fake news.
Not one shred of evidence that puts Donald Trump in the hot seat.

Donald Trump doesn't smoke, and he doesn't drink or do drugs. There are no unhealthy sexual skeletons in his cupboard either. 
All he does is speak in clear plain English, without too much regard for PC.

So after one year of intense scrutiny from the worlds media and lefty establishment, he's still squeaky clean.

Oh and very rich - sorry about that, to a socialist that is a criminal offence in itself.
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 11:00 AM GMT
FWIW:

Re "shreds of evidence".  Donald Trump's former National Security advisor has plead guilty to Federal offences with potential sentences of 10 years.  Please could you define squeaky clean?

Re sexual skeletons - Trump's lawyer formed a company to pay $130,000 to a porn star.  He dissolved the company two minutes later.  Trump is on tape - Access Hollywood tapes - bragging about assaulting women. 
These are matters of public record.

Trump is in debt to Deutsche Bank to the tune of 100s of millions of dollars.  He's the opposite of very rich. 
His rental portfolio has the hallmarks of a money laundering scheme - but that's still under investigation, so not yet proved.

The Trump fan base bear all the hallmarks of a cult.  Whatever the objective truth (ie, actual events) are explained away with strange self justifications. 

All harmless enough if this reality TV star head remained just that.  When he's the most powerful politician in the world, but incapable of holding basic policy information in his head, then the world has a problem.
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 11:12 AM GMT
Trump has committed obstruction of justice in the last 24 hours for what it's worth.

He induced aides to withold testimony from an official proceeding without invoking Executive Privilege.

This will be litigated, and it will go to the Supreme Court.  Ultimate verdicts will depend on politics and numbers (Supreme Court justices being political appointees).

Describing this situation as squeaky clean is probably unique - most Trump fans don't actually believe he's done nothing wrong.  Most tend to the view that on balance, it doesn't matter.  Which is different.
Report Dr Crippen January 19, 2018 11:21 AM GMT
Just another page in the throw enough mud at Trump and some of it will stick saga.

We've had twelve months of this and the only people losing credibility are the authorities and the media.
It's got to the point where the only people taking any notice of the allegations are the ones making them up.
Oh and of course a few lefties, but then they thrive on fantasy.
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 11:35 AM GMT
okay Crippen, whatever you say.

Have you heard of Robert Mueller?

Do you understand that he is a career policeman (and staunch Republican).  He has had guilty please from leading members of the Trump campaign.  He's conducting an ongoing investigation.

These are not things which anybody has "made up". 

It's tough, I know, when you really really really want something to be the case - and it would be lovely if Trump wasn't a criminal.  But he is actually under this investigation.  And the people doing the investigating are serious people. 

"The media is making it up" may work for you, but that's just a comment on you.  It has no basis in objective reality. 

The media are reporting the events arising from the investigation as they uncover them.  Trump would love there to be no media scrutiny - why do you think he attacks them endlessly? It's part of his cover.
Report Dr Crippen January 19, 2018 11:53 AM GMT
What is it this time, the Russians interfering in American elections again?

How does that stack up against Obama coming to the UK threatening us with being put to the back of the queue when it comes to trade deals if we vote for Brexit?

I'd call a direct threat from an American president as a very serious attempt at interfering in a UK election.
Yet when is the inquiry regarding Cameron conspiring with the Americans to rig a UK election?

Can you understand the conflict you display, with your demands for American politics to be absolutely above board and without outside influence, with the total absence of any sense of fair play from outside influence in UK elections?

How do you explain that?
Report Dr Crippen January 19, 2018 11:55 AM GMT
Here I'll explain it for you:

Fake News!
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 11:55 AM GMT
how do I explain what?

your answer to the objective Facts - that Trump is under investigation, and senior people from his team are pleading guilty and cooperating with the investigation - is to ask me some questions about Obama? 

that's a non-answer if ever there was one.  Which is expected.

you still haven't answered if you have ever heard of Robert Mueller?
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 11:56 AM GMT
well done.  That's settled then.  I'll email Mueller - Crippen has discovered large letters - we can rest easy.
Report unitedbiscuits January 19, 2018 11:58 AM GMT
Chew on this, Dr Crippen

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/white-house-trade-deal-uk-low-priority-brexit-a7706681.html
Report bigpoppapump January 19, 2018 12:45 PM GMT
Can you understand the conflict you display, with your demands for American politics to be absolutely above board and without outside influence, with the total absence of any sense of fair play from outside influence in UK elections?

just to clarify a few inaccuracies:

I haven't made any demands "for American politics".

I'm merely pointing out there are ongoing criminal investigations into the conduct of the Trump campaign.  People from those campaigns have been making plea bargains and cooperating with the investigation. 

No demands and no opinions.  Just that this is real, not made up, and Trump is not squeaky clean (as claimed above).
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