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grayhawk
12 Jun 18 14:37
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Date Joined: 05 Oct 06
| Topic/replies: 23,457 | Blogger: grayhawk's blog
Who can honestly say that they were winning year on year  betting on horses while they were under the age of 25 even though they had a decent grasp of the form book?

I was definitely not one of them......for me you have to take your lumps while gaining that experience...

The reason i ask is that Millington has young men and women tipping horses in his newspapers and on the website and i'd be very surprised if they're  long term winners......i apologise if i'm wrong

I realise that there's the odd exception like Veitch.
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Report saddo June 12, 2018 2:40 PM BST
Must have been mental thinking I could win in them days, given the limited tools we had. Very different today, computers changed everything.
Report mouse muldoon June 12, 2018 2:45 PM BST
When I were a lad you could come up with a system that would work for some time, as in the market wouldn't catch up as quickly as it does now.
Report sparrow June 12, 2018 2:54 PM BST
The bookmaker margins were far greater and there are far more options now such as place only and laying. Betting tax another thing in the 60s when I was in my 20s.
Report mouse muldoon June 12, 2018 2:57 PM BST
I'd have been about 20 when the tax was abolished, so a good time to start in the path to serious punting really.
Report DenzilPenberthy June 12, 2018 2:59 PM BST
This 'new blood' type recruitment is contrary to the RP/Bookmaker narrative of recent years which forces as many as possible away from the game.
Report acey deucy June 12, 2018 3:33 PM BST
I lost plenty gambling on Horses in my Younger Days.....Don't loose half as much Now.Cool
Report koikeeper June 12, 2018 4:23 PM BST
Always thought it was easier back in the day
Report dunlaying June 12, 2018 4:30 PM BST
I don't remember betting tax in the 60s .
Report acey deucy June 12, 2018 4:39 PM BST
So much more info available nowadays must make it a bit easier surely?
Report mouse muldoon June 12, 2018 4:40 PM BST
Makes it easier for everyone, so nearly everyone wins.
Report grayhawk June 12, 2018 4:44 PM BST
Surprised at that Koi....the ability to watch every race live and view recordings at a later date is massive imo
Report DenzilPenberthy June 12, 2018 4:44 PM BST
Yes the online books are especially famous for their wealth distribution amongst us racing enthusiasts we are reaping the benefits of muggy casino players' losses.
Report onlooker June 12, 2018 4:44 PM BST
1966 - dunlaying  ...

John Banks, who owned a chain of betting shops in Scotland, and who later became one of the biggest racecourse bookmakers, described the shops as 'money factories', a description that attracted the Government's interest. In 1966 they introduced betting tax.
Report koikeeper June 12, 2018 4:49 PM BST
It was better in the days before betfair imo..granted you still got the "non trier"..but now it's rancid...i always managed with the sporting chronicle and the raceform notebook
Report DenzilPenberthy June 12, 2018 4:55 PM BST
Tieing in with the opening post why would anyone who can win betting want any kind of regular job it makes no sense whatsoever?
You can bet your last £ that if they aren't disillusioned with betting restrictions etc. at such an age they'd be looking elsewhere for career opportunities so I'd be confident the job applicants will lack in racing and betting knowledge alot of which is accrued by time.
Report donny osmond June 12, 2018 5:06 PM BST
do newspaper tipsters make a profit?

i thought they were to encourage punting
Report duffy June 12, 2018 5:12 PM BST
In the old days when you had to try and find a winner before the race had even started (imagine doing that Crazy ) was nigh on impossible long term.
Report Darlo Bantam June 12, 2018 5:12 PM BST
Last time I saw a level stakes profit/loss chart, over any period of time, you might get one or two tipsters the tiniest fraction ahead if you were lucky.
Report sparrow June 12, 2018 5:20 PM BST
People talking about it being easier in those days are talking nonsense.
Report onlooker June 12, 2018 5:22 PM BST
I, too, once had 5 winners out of 6 in the Tote Jackpot.

The one that let me down was the shortest price of them all ... it later transpired that the horse had been doped.
Report koikeeper June 12, 2018 5:32 PM BST
Sparrow you obviously struggled.
Report equine flew June 12, 2018 5:39 PM BST
Easier to have a better grasp of the formbook as far less racing.   However, most of my punts these days are based on visual evidence of watching every race back.   Couldn't do that back in the day.
Report sparrow June 12, 2018 5:43 PM BST
koikeeper.......If Alec Bird was still with us even he would tell you it was easier now.
Report Movewiththetimes June 12, 2018 5:45 PM BST
Sir Henry Cecil's 2 year olds were printing money back in the day.
Report sparrow June 12, 2018 5:54 PM BST
Cecil's 2 year olds were printing money for bookmakers when the 2nd string won which was often the case.
Report knot in wood June 12, 2018 5:55 PM BST
was well worth making the effort to go racing before the tv channels and replays become available,viewing the re-run and vitally important head-on which only a small minority would see.

you could also check if a horse was fit and the on course bookies prices were much more fluid and some value prices could be obtained.

hardly worth bothering now unless it's for a day out.
Report dunlaying June 12, 2018 5:57 PM BST
I remember betting tax being introduced in 1973 , the winter of discontent and the three day week .
Report GHOSTOFALEXBIRD June 12, 2018 5:57 PM BST
Henry always put horses of simler abilty in races Mr Sparrow

It was us punters who made one better than the other

ii m o of causeHappy
Report sparrow June 12, 2018 6:03 PM BST
dunlaying..........onlooker has already told you that betting tax was introduced in 1966 which is correct.
Report Cork Langer June 12, 2018 6:07 PM BST
As ever very much depends on the type of player you were/are, the advent of technology has made compiling data easier but it has also given the books a massive advantage against punters, given a choice personally I would prefer to revert to days of old, at least then even when known you could still get bets on because there were always people prepared to take you on either at the course or via an independent bookie, whereas nowadays, it seems it is a book balancing exercise, nothing more, for most of the layers.

The necessity to keep abreast of everything by keeping meticulous records was and is often now ridiculed by many, but knowing where you are and how you are performing are paramount to continued success as far as I am concerned.

Years ago the majority of fellow punters that I mixed with on a regular basis use to rib me over the hours I spent logging details of what my eyes told me throughout watching a race, the bets I had on each race and an analysis and summary of how I had done, most of them would rely on their newspapers, memory and word of mouth from others, this was fine to a point, but the human memory is not programmed to collate and analyse such a volume of data that any flat or NH season produces and in conversations at later dates it was always a source of amusement to me to hear the different opinions put forward, because on most occasions they bore no resemblance to the notes I had lovingly and patiently recorded.

This was not a case of me being smarter than others, merely a lesson learn't as a child from hours of watching my parents fritter money away based on the knowledge they retained in their heads from previous runs and bets that were never recorded, strange how the facts were always altered to the ones I remembered when they were recalling or reminiscing with others about their good and bad days, suffice to say the good days were very rare in our household throughout my younger life, though like all compulsive gamblers they would attempt to convince others as well as themselves that they were well ahead of the game.

It is a wonder that I ever got involved myself really, but on reflection now many years have passed, I have come to accept that it was most probably because of my parents failure, that I had been so driven to succeed, though funnily enough at least to me anyway, my parents always viewed my success with a mixture of pride but also a fair amount of resentment, for achieving something that had always eluded them.

Racing is no different to most things in life, proportionally you get out of it a percentage of what you are prepared to put in, that percentage usually increases over time if you choose to learn from your previous mistakes.
Report koikeeper June 12, 2018 6:26 PM BST
Good post cork.
Report Willie Shafter. June 12, 2018 7:13 PM BST
without an edge of some kind 1% of pre race punters will win long term.
Report wondersobright June 12, 2018 7:32 PM BST
yep agree with the last few posts

v difficult to win long term betting horses on here just before the off
the edges that are around are principally held by data analysts imo
a few ricks on here early on when the markets are forming but usually to peanuts
more ricks on the juicy early prices with the books but you are gone v quickly if you keep taking them
Report wondersobright June 12, 2018 7:36 PM BST
and to answer your point gray...they say that those who can do, do, and those who can't do, teach

^true in the 99% of the cases of the people you are referring to gray
Report grayhawk June 12, 2018 7:36 PM BST
So not many winners before they'd served their time then....
Report grayhawk June 12, 2018 7:37 PM BST
That was posted before you last post wonderso...
Report Andrew in Sweden June 12, 2018 7:41 PM BST
If i knew then what i know now, i would be a lot wealthier Wink
Report Oldgit1 June 12, 2018 11:19 PM BST
Wondersobright. Those who can't tip.
Report impossible123 June 12, 2018 11:33 PM BST
'Cork Langer', indeed. With the advent of technology since the days of ticker-tape commentary a dedicated, conscientious and savvy horse racing individual could compete and possibly surpass the challengse against the bookies and/or racing journalists/tipsters. Of course a bit of luck thrown in would help enormously too.

The majority of tipsters especially those feeding from the bookies' gravy train eg racing journalists and affiliates are former unsuccessful or failed punters otherwise, they all would not be relying majorly from their paymasters for a living, I firmly believe.
Report Cork Langer June 13, 2018 12:33 AM BST
impossible123, I personally have every sympathy for racing journalists who are given the job of picking a selection in every race at every meeting, knowing that the real requirement is that they are not to be overly successful, therefore should we blame them for being lazy and playing the percentage game that safeguards their employment...?

Unfortunately those that drive racing and hold all the cards do not want anyone to be successful as it defeats the aim of their existence, the advent of every race being shown live was very much welcomed when it happened as something positive, unfortunately very few saw the negatives or even bothered to check to see if there were any, the edge that those of us who regularly attended meetings had, then disappeared immediately and life for any half decent punter has only got more difficult with each passing year.

Technology has also seen most old school punters lose out through a failure to adapt quickly enough and to utilise the many tools that suddenly became available as computers took over the collection and analysis of data, doing all the work necessary to enable any half decent computer programmer to write a basic program to cream off a massive chunk of the market without any liability or risk.

Moving forward to present day, it is what it is now and I for one am very glad that I am fortunate enough to only have to play for interest these days, without the pressure that comes with trying to support a family on an income sourced solely from your ability to make the game pay, I take my hat off to anyone that manages to do so.
Report kennythebetboy June 13, 2018 6:44 AM BST
It depends on how you started out betting on horseracing.

I was lucky enough to meet and talk to real on-course professional gamblers when I was a kid and teenager. Having an analytical mind I was intrigued by how they made it pay and adopted some of their methods early on with mixed results.... but it was a learning curve, it was my University Of Life.

Rather than being a compulsive gambler, I was the opposite, it had to stack up for me to have a bet, but what was instilled in me at the time was that the percentages were in my favour by being patient and gradually building a bank I could go to war in the hope of coming out on top over a season.

It was then "a job", attending race meetings every day (sometimes 2 a day), seeing with my own eyes what was going on and mostly not having a bet. But when the time was right I had the courage to back what I had worked out to be the winner to lumpy single stakes and more often than not came out winning.... to the extent that those who knew I was a regular winner would follow me around the betting ring ... asking "What's he backing?"

With no all-weather racing in those days, there was an early opportunity at the start of the flat turf season to see stables with runners that were more forward than others from notable yards, plus I was very clued up on early 2yo form that paid the expenses for the rest of the year.
I could see that those that relied on newspaper tipsters and never ventured out of the betting shop could never win, they were easy fodder for the big bookmaking chains.

I can give you an instance of racing newspaper journalist (and later Editor) of the Sporting Chronicle Graham Rock (RIP) having a lumpy bet on a 2yo running at Haydock whilst we were at Ascot where he had napped the favourite in the paper, but he was backing the second fav., when I questioned this, he said well I had to find a way of getting the best price for the winner at the away meeting. Later proved his shrewdness with horses trained by Sir Mark Prescott for him.

Another way to make gambling pay in the winter (I was never a lover then of jumps racing, I just wanted them to go to the start and come back without obstacles put in their way) was if there was a day with no horse racing because of abandonments the betting shops would revert to concentrating on greyhound racing. So the ploy was to select the 4 most valuable "Open Races" on the card (usually at Hackney BAGS), leave out the forecast favourite and couple the next 3 in the betting in combination forecast multi's using the Tote returned f/cast divi (the pool was strengthened by the interest on the day because of no horse racing and some returned £10 to 10p or more) ... the bet resulted in it becoming increasingly hard to get it accepted after a couple of 4 figure returns and was a factor in bookies reverting solely to their manipulated CSF and introducing stringent limits on what you could win.

Like now, if you are a regular winner, accounts are closed or you are severely restricted ... so it is a continuing battle of wits of how to get bets under the radar, you have to adapt and go with the times and try to find loopholes to exploit. Once you find a winning formula you have to hammer it whilst you have the opportunity, because it will not last long now that bookies have all the latest tracking and monitoring software.

DevilWhoopsWinkWink
Report sparrow June 13, 2018 7:34 AM BST
kennythebetboy    Joined: 10 Nov 08
Replies: 1815 13 Jun 18 06:44

So the ploy was to select the 4 most valuable "Open Races" on the card (usually at Hackney BAGS), leave out the forecast favourite and couple the next 3 in the betting in combination forecast multi's using the Tote returned f/cast divi (the pool was strengthened by the interest on the day because of no horse racing and some returned £10 to 10p or more) ... the bet resulted in it becoming increasingly hard to get it accepted after a couple of 4 figure returns and was a factor in bookies reverting solely to their manipulated CSF and introducing stringent limits on what you could win.






Bookmakers stopped using the Tote returned forecasts shortly after the Dagenham Coup in 1964.
Report kennythebetboy June 13, 2018 8:02 AM BST
Sparrow,

Stop trying to be "clever dickie"


Wrong ...Tote returns were still available in 1974 ... I think the use of sole chart forecasts came in about 1976 by the big 3 ... Hills, Ladcrooks & Corals (with Mecca still going at the time).

DevilWhoopsWinkWink
Report sparrow June 13, 2018 8:11 AM BST
I think it is yourself who is trying trying to appear a "clever dickie". Were you betting in the mid 60s?
Report impossible123 June 13, 2018 8:58 AM BST
'Cork Linger', re: sympathy for tipsters. I do understand, and point taken nevertheless, still appalled by the callous 'marketing' spiel of bookies dished out by the majority. Keep posting,...I'm selective in what I read and take-on-board, and never accuses any poster on aftertiming. I never look a gift horse in the mouth where superior intellectual and sophistication on the subject are on offer; conversely, quick to bin those on the opposite spectrum.

Unlike the City this is game closely follows the adage..."there's no such thing as a free lunch" too ie a degree of success one is barred or severely restricted in no time. Even here bots are used to manipulate one's position at every opportunity; cash outs are relatively poor value compare to elsewhere; liquidity is derisory most of the time except on race day. And nothing is truly 'live'.
Report Paddy Hair June 13, 2018 9:03 AM BST
Had good days and bad days, the trouble with being under 25 is being disciplined. Good days you wanted more, bad days you chased your losses. But that's being under 25.
Report Movewiththetimes June 13, 2018 9:12 AM BST
Sparrow, far harder to back a 2 year old AOB horse today than backing a 2 year old Henry horse, you could put your house on his first 10 two year olds every season for about 10 years.
Report salmon spray June 13, 2018 9:46 AM BST
I was a racing follower but the betting tax came in when I was 15 or 16 and at that point I gave up my idea of being a professional gambler and did very little betting when I was old enough to do so despite an abiding interest in racing ( the football pools which were the other great sports betting outlet back in the day never attracted me and I knew the tax on them was steeper still ). In 1965 I was all prepared to make my fortune as on 300 or so paper bets I made 10% profit ( sorry for the aftertiming.) Betting tax to start with was lower than that but it was enough to put me off. For younger people it was a tax on turnover which is much more punitive than a tax on profit of course.
Report kennythebetboy June 13, 2018 9:58 AM BST
Sparrow,

Yes ... I had a McLaughlan's postal account when I was 8 (nom de plume "Boy") and went racing a lot with my Dad in 60's before betting shops (used to get the tartan diary every year) and later when 11+ cycled to Hurst Park, Sandown, Kempton, Epsom, & Lingfield ... also long gone Ally Pally & Lewes. Had the Sporting Chronical Handicap Book every week (later renamed Update).

It improved my maths no end .. working out the % over-rounds, WFA and private handicap ratings.

Anyone remember Mason's Time Test ... was a definitive book that gave Mason's own average times, was good for h/capping early season 2yo's to see what were decent run races. Race times differed in the results section of Handicap Book & Weekender (a later publication by Sporting Life), with some handheld times and some no times recorded.

Used to see Jim McGrath (Timeform) when he had just started with stopwatch in hand at places like Salisbury, Lingfield etc., he tripped me up one day as we descended the steep staircase in the stand at Salisbury, we clipped heels and I demanded a stewards enquiry (met interference in running) LoL!

DevilWhoopsWinkWink
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