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DeKaiser
16 Oct 11 12:19
Joined:
Date Joined: 15 May 11
| Topic/replies: 4,538 | Blogger: DeKaiser's blog
No wonder shop bookies want punters on these things.
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Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:23 PM BST
They ain't regulated very well really though are they pixie
Report pixie October 20, 2011 12:28 PM BST
No way, Guinness. Well over half of betting shops would close overnight if that happened. It would be hard for me to come up with a more accurate figure as I haven't worked for any of the big boys in years but it could be as high as 90%.
Report guinness2dear October 20, 2011 12:32 PM BST
Well i will have to disagree there pixie. No doubt the like of yourself and other Indies would be the hardest hit, but the High Street, really ?

To use a Banks analogy... If Tescos were stopped from selling tinned food, would they close ?
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:36 PM BST
Must be a very odd position to be in really pixie as I expect you never opened a Bookmakers (or possibly your Father never if it has been handed down) with the intention of living off FOBT profits.

Yet as Bookmaking (Shops) has changed your business has become reliant on them.

Just shows how much the game has changed.
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:39 PM BST
guiness

The High Street would be big time.

Take Laddies for an example in Glasgow Centre - 3 shops within 100 yards of each other (and that is from 1 to 3 with number 2 40 yards from the other 2 plonked in the middle).

If FOBTS went I would expect 1 would shut straight away - probably 1 of the other 2 within a year as well.

How could an independent compete against 1 of the Big Three then, absolutely no chance.
Report pixie October 20, 2011 12:43 PM BST
cadizza 20 Oct 11 12:23 
They ain't regulated very well really though are they pixie


It's hard to say. I have only ever heard of one that was ever used outside of an LBO and they were successfully prosecuted. With regard to inducements to play them like free bets and competitions, whilst they are allowed, the hard sell will continue. Maybe the waste of time and money that is the Gambling Commission will look into it and try and determine if the way the machines are marketed effects compulsion and then outlaw this practice if true - but I doubt it.
Report guinness2dear October 20, 2011 12:44 PM BST
Ok, so how many outlets have been created because of FOBT'S ?

If you as a business make a decision to increase that said business because of 'demand' do you not think that business should accept the pitfalls of any business, especially in this climate ?
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:46 PM BST
Independents appear to have a real problem with the GC - is it because of the cost you pay per year? I believe it is around £1700?

Or are there other issues and you feel you are targeted more than the big boys?
Report homefortea October 20, 2011 12:48 PM BST
I suspect that not as many jobs would be lost as you think if FOBT's were banned and some of the new betting shops closed.Many are single manned (now that really should be banned) most of the day, and staffed by "recent arrivals" to these shores.Gone are the days when to be a Betting Shop manager was a skill and the pay reflected that.
Report zilzal1 October 20, 2011 12:51 PM BST
Agree, whereas now anything with the slightest complication means trouble
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:51 PM BST
very true homefortea.

What they tend to do as well in these new "machine shops" is put the new starters in them who are pretty clueless and have no knowledge of bookmaking. It don't take long for a few shrewdies to suss that out and they then start to have it off regular.

Some very, very poor Managers now in Betting Shops.
Report guinness2dear October 20, 2011 12:54 PM BST
No answer for me, cadizza ?
Report toronto44 October 20, 2011 12:57 PM BST
Pixie as i said before everyone has to earn a crust but you are earning yours directly off the back of causing misery and unhappiness to other people.You know it but you just dont care,as long as you get what you want.You know what they say.... what goes around comes around.One day you may find that out.

Then you come up with the old bookmakers chestnut, that shops would close without them.Well first why would it be a bad thing,people who give their money to the greedy bs that run bookmakers,would spend it on other things.Maybe food for their families or taking their wife out for a meal.This would be much better for other peoples jobs.Should we be upset if the police did their job and cleared all the drug dealers off our streets.The only people i would worry about are the shop staff but they are being ripped off just the same.Minimum wage,working all hours in dangerous shops.If 50% of these shops went other businesses would replace them offering better more well paid jobs.Then the shops left would have to go back to what they were given licences for...taking bets from punters.
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 12:57 PM BST
Sorry guiness. I would say possibly an extra two or three in every Town/City split across various firms.

You just have to see what even Boris Johnson said this week to realise Shops are created simply for FOBT'S:

http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Latest-News/Boris-Johnson-hits-out-at-clustered-betting-shops-800762240.html
Report guinness2dear October 20, 2011 1:02 PM BST
No worries cadizza. I'm just saying that my heart will not bleed for a company that increases it's outlets because of greed, or as some would call, business Acumen Mischief for it then to fall around their feet because of Government legislation (zero chance btw)
Report pixie October 20, 2011 1:25 PM BST
toronto44 20 Oct 11 12:57 
Pixie as i said before everyone has to earn a crust but you are earning yours directly off the back of causing misery and unhappiness to other people.You know it but you just dont care,as long as you get what you want.You know what they say.... what goes around comes around.One day you may find that out.


I find you trying to take the moral high ground with your pious drivel so patronising that it's almost offensive. For your information, as far as I'm aware, I don't believe any of my customers are addicted to the FOBTs and as I stated earlier, have no qualms as to how I provide for my family and I don't believe in karma but the form book and stats thanks.
Report toronto44 October 20, 2011 1:38 PM BST
Every new shop that opens now.Must open because it can cover its rent,rates staff ec etc and then make a profit for the people at the top.So every new shop must create a whole new client base of FOBT users.Causing more poverty and misery to not only their users but to all their families.Also pushing other businesses into bankruptcy(decent jobs being lost)because these people are giving their money to bookmakers rather than spending it on things they would have previously spent it on.The more money lost in FOBTs the more decent jobs are lost.Maybe one of the reasons why so many pubs have closed recently.

Is that a good thing Pixie.Should we all fight to protect these shops from closing!!!!!!!
Report Steamship October 20, 2011 2:03 PM BST
pixie- I must take you to task and ask you to come to Hull and the Orchard Park Estate where it is the highest level of child poverty in the country. I will then take you to the 4 bookies in the area and see people playing the machines. I said earlier that gambling is a problem for some but for me there is no place in the shops for these machines. If you are an alcoholic at some stage you will pass out before spending all your money but thatr does not happen with problem gamblers. Read the stories on gamcare and get some decency.
Report nortons October 20, 2011 2:04 PM BST
Most defenders of the FOBTS use the analogy of do you ban alcohol,cigs etc because of a few who have no self control.The difference is that you can purchase cigs,alcohol,junk food etc from every village and town in the country but roulette excluding the internet was only available in a casino.Living near Worcester the nearest casino to me is Birmingham 20 miles away,but overnight it was available on every High St to all and sundry.

As Banks has said,internet gambling probably does as a whole cause more problems,but at least you have to register, possess a debit/credit card and have access to the internet.FOBTS- just take a step off the pavement with your cash and fire away,its all too easy.
Report strikeitrichy October 20, 2011 2:06 PM BST
People in bookies are hooked on these machines like no other type of gambling. They make majority of their profits from these FOBTs. Any shop you walk into ask the manager, he/she will tell you,by far majority of their profits come from the machines
Report homefortea October 20, 2011 2:18 PM BST
Pixie - who supplies you with your horse racing early prices ?
Report pixie October 20, 2011 2:28 PM BST
Toronto, that whole posting is muddled contradictory made up bullsh1t.

Every new shop that opens now.Must open because it can cover its rent,rates staff ec etc and then make a profit for the people at the top.So every new shop must create a whole new client base of FOBT users.

Simply not true. An outlandish statement based on zero research and facts. Most shops opening are in localised areas where they directly compete for a market share of the existing business.

Causing more poverty and misery to not only their users but to all their families.Also pushing other businesses into bankruptcy(decent jobs being lost)because these people are giving their money to bookmakers rather than spending it on things they would have previously spent it on.

Again, complete and utter boll@cks, pure conjecture on your part. What percentage or number of punters are suffering through their addiction solely because of the widespread availability of FOBTS and is this an acceptable number given the pleasure and excise they generate? It's just plain ridiculous to say that because you don't like FOBTS that they shouldn't exist and to stop the solution is to interfere with market forces. Should it be you, as self appointed assessor of what is 'right' or 'wrong'  that should decide what premises should open where and determine how people should spend their money?

The more money lost in FOBTs the more decent jobs are lost.Maybe one of the reasons why so many pubs have closed recently.

Again, just made up bullsh1t. Almost certainly not true and not backed up with any facts or logic. As we all know, all the pubs that have closed recently have done so because of FOBTs and has nothing to do with the fact it's much cheaper to drink at home, the smoking ban, breweries selling beer to tenants at overly inflated costs, high rent and rates from the property boom, etc.

Is that a good thing Pixie.Should we all fight to protect these shops from closing!!!!!!!

I'm not sure I even understand what you are trying to say here. Nowhere have I or anyone else on this thread stated that we should fight to protect betting shops from closing. In fact, I believe if mark forces determine that it is unprofitable to trade then a betting shop should shut down - just like any other business.
Report toronto44 October 20, 2011 2:34 PM BST
Everything i have posted Pixie is basic economics.A pound can only be spent once,if its being put into a FOBT it cannot be spent elsewhere.

Work to do now so will post a reply later
Report pixie October 20, 2011 2:49 PM BST
Steamship 20 Oct 11 14:03 
pixie- I must take you to task and ask you to come to Hull and the Orchard Park Estate where it is the highest level of child poverty in the country. I will then take you to the 4 bookies in the area and see people playing the machines. I said earlier that gambling is a problem for some but for me there is no place in the shops for these machines. If you are an alcoholic at some stage you will pass out before spending all your money but thatr does not happen with problem gamblers. Read the stories on gamcare and get some decency.


Whilst it is very sad to see poverty I feel it is wrong to just blame societies problems on FOBTs with no research or facts. At the end of the day there appears to be two beliefs:

1. That people are too stupid to make a decision for themselves and should be protected from themselves and therefore you should outlaw anything where some may become 'victims' despite the fact that that many derive pleasure from it.

2. That we live in a relaxed and open society where we are free to spend our leisure time as we please. There will inevitably be people who will be hurt but that is the trade off for a free society and by taxing the product there will be ample provision for charities and counseling services to assist them.

As for telling me to get some decency because I happen to disagree with your viewpoint, I will just treat it with the contempt it deserves. I donate to gambling charities and help others with their gambling addictions regularly.
Report pixie October 20, 2011 2:53 PM BST
toronto44 20 Oct 11 14:34 
Everything i have posted Pixie is basic economics.A pound can only be spent once,if its being put into a FOBT it cannot be spent elsewhere.

Work to do now so will post a reply later


Please don't bother. No doubt it will be the same old  boring, pious, unsubstantiated, opinionated drivel as before.
Report pixie October 20, 2011 2:56 PM BST
homefortea 20 Oct 11 14:18 
Pixie - who supplies you with your horse racing early prices ?


Sorry, didn't see your post until now. Stan James.
Report cadizza October 20, 2011 2:57 PM BST
Sad you feel that way pixie but it is a problem mate, I know you have your own interests to protect and cannot admit they are a problem on here.

Probably best to leave it now, nobody on here can do much other than sign that petition.

Only the Government can stop them or people can stop using them.
Report homefortea October 20, 2011 3:03 PM BST
Oh dear Pixie.Tell us where your shop is and you will have no problems with FOBT's because I will have the keys within a month.
Report Pinot Noir October 20, 2011 3:06 PM BST
Romanian child beggar's  are earning  more in London than an FOBT...infact wouldn't surprise me if Ladcrooks dont get into this market soon,once they realize the potential.
Report Dr Gonzo October 20, 2011 3:28 PM BST
One of the big boys has a shop on a corner in the town where I am, so lots of window display space, about a dozen posters. Here we are, the week after Champions Day, and every single poster, bar one by the door for tonight's football, is advertising £2 spins on these things.

Racing is well and  truly f**ked
Report blunt-chisel October 20, 2011 6:37 PM BST
UP YA GO.Silly
Report levelstakes1 October 20, 2011 6:42 PM BST
If FOBT 's and betting shops and the tote and even Betfair were nationalised none of it would matter. People would ose their dough but it would filter back into schools and hospitals and even racing. Trouble is its owned by Billionaire corporations who take from the poor and just keep it, paying only a fraction in corporation tax because theyve employed some clever c***s to help them avoid it
Report toronto44 October 22, 2011 11:07 AM BST
Please go to e petitions and sign petition to ban FOBTS.Just put gambling in search box.
Report toronto44 October 22, 2011 11:07 AM BST
Please go to e petitions and sign petition to ban FOBTS.Just put gambling in search box.
Report cadizza October 22, 2011 11:38 AM BST
Lost my job this week for refusing to bow to demands made by bosses after I had enough of my District Manager's whole attitude and demeanour.

He referred to FOBT players who had Self Excluded in the phrase "I would take every last penny off these bastards".

That is the type of person these Firms have working for themselves. I never got in to the Industry to milk people via FOBT'S - unfortunately some people high up have no problem in doing so.

Anyone with any advice on what to do about this is welcome to inbox me as the Firm (one of the big three) have not taken this seriously at all.
Report toronto44 October 22, 2011 12:01 PM BST
Sorry to hear that Cadizza,im sure you will get a better job.You sound like the type of decent person these greedy Bs want out.Anyone who is not prepared to make their money pushing their licensed drug to often poor and vulnerable people.At least you can hold your head up and know you dont make your living spreading misery.
Report zilzal1 October 22, 2011 12:03 PM BST
Job for a secret Camera Shurley, if the general public are that concerned about whips then taking that attitude towards unfortunate people would be a pr own goal.

Dont think the Gambling Comission would be too pleased about this kind of marketing, give em a ring??
Report PRIVATE-H-PILE October 22, 2011 12:10 PM BST
Can only echo what 44 has said Cadizza . . .

At least you have your honour intact.

Decent honest person such as yourself will soon find a job.

Nice idea zil
Report homefortea October 22, 2011 12:59 PM BST
If you walked out with your head held high take legal advice and sue for constructive dismissal.The firm will soon settle as I doubt that they would want any negative publicity.Tell them that you will contact the papers both local and national as there is nothing the gutter press like more than a Gambling story with victims ! Of course do not bother to contact the Trade Paper as they will not be interested. Good Luck !!!
Report cadizza October 22, 2011 11:42 PM BST
Just told the truth from day one.

Wiliam Hills is the firm in question.

Gary Makar - District Manger ("take every penny off the bastards"),

Steven White - Area Manager (uses warm money to arb), owns Greyhounds in Sunderland area, classes Clavert as a "pratt"

Tony Charlton - District Manager "We want you to get two a week on them"

Steve Duffy - Machines Manager "We want you to get two a week on them"

Thats Willam Hills in the North East folks.
Report Steamship October 22, 2011 11:52 PM BST
Just signed the petition only the 30th so we need many more lets spread the word
Report cadizza October 22, 2011 11:53 PM BST
homefortea

Just read your reply, Steve White won't care - he is well known for using warm money.

I have complained before to him but he seems to think his stance as Area Manager for Hills means he can do anything he can. Shame he has been punting with various firms for years in his wifes name.

Recently he said in a meeting "my Mrs keeps asking why Ladbrokes keep texting me" and laughed, this was after saying its not right that people open different accounts to fool Taders.

What a fool.
Report doantwin2easy October 22, 2011 11:57 PM BST
signed....
Report da fallon factor October 22, 2011 11:59 PM BST
where do i sign
Report guinness2dear October 23, 2011 12:00 AM BST
Word of mouth is needed.

Spread the word chaps..
Report doantwin2easy October 23, 2011 12:02 AM BST
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/17676
Report cadizza October 23, 2011 12:02 AM BST
bmccolgan@william.co.uk

Let him know as well - Steve White don't care, punter, punter, puntr.
Report cadizza October 23, 2011 12:47 AM BST
If what I have said is not true the above people are welcome to sue me.

Cheers.
Report PRIVATE-H-PILE October 23, 2011 5:41 AM BST
Great stuff Cadizza.

Aweful firm run by aweful people it seems.

The North East can be proud of you fella, i know it dont pay the bills but id have you any time over prats like Banks (he has gone very quiet?)
Report corbiewood October 23, 2011 9:38 AM BST
I would assume hes gone quiet big grime because of the deluge of nonsense posted on this thread by your idiot friend Toronto.

Some staggering things stated on here based on the premise of blinkered opinion rather than facts.
Report bigphatairyarse October 23, 2011 9:50 AM BST
Know of all the above Cadizza, some truly awful people.

Don't give a toss about anyone but themselves.

Always thought that about "Chalkie" too - "arber" - what a hypocrite

Sorry to hear about you losing your job mate, good luck in the future.
Report toronto44 October 23, 2011 10:39 PM BST
corb you sound just like the sort of bloke Cadizza had to work for.With all the bosses a rse licking  you do on here,you might just make that promotion from lapdog and runner.Maybe  not,they probably have you down as loyal but thick as s hite.

If you want to argue any facts about the FObts,feel free.The one you came up with that the casino take on here DWARFS the take of all the bookmakers take on casino and games together, was not a great one!!
Report TheHonestScouser October 23, 2011 11:01 PM BST
Does anyone believe b*okies don't cook the books when it comes to the percentage & turnover figures they are declaring to pay levy on from racing turnover.

They dodge it on telebetting by going overseas & no doubt they will also be 'at it' with the shops
Report PRIVATE-H-PILE October 24, 2011 6:37 AM BST
Corb . . . . What nonesense?

So Cads bosses are ok with you then??
Report Bolt October 24, 2011 9:39 AM BST
Things I learned from this thread:-

1. There are a surprising number of socialists on the Betfair forum.
2. Anyone holding an opposing point of view, no matter how eruditely, is to be ignored, personally attacked and is obviously being financially compensated by Ladbrokes PR department, since no-one could really think those things.
3. Gaming Machines are evil.
4. No, really, evil. No, honest 'cos, right - listen. They're the crack cocaine of gambling. Crack cocaine of gambling. The Sun said so. And crack cocaine's evil too. And some bloke said he knew someone who killed himself because of them.
5. In the middle of a recession, people apparently 'leave' otherwise satisfactory jobs over a moral issue.
6. I need to 'take a good look at myself'

:)
Report corbiewood October 24, 2011 10:47 AM BST
toronto44     23 Oct 11 22:39 
corb you sound just like the sort of bloke Cadizza had to work for.With all the bosses a rse licking  you do on here,you might just make that promotion from lapdog and runner.Maybe  not,they probably have you down as loyal but thick as s hite.

If you want to argue any facts about the FObts,feel free.The one you came up with that the casino take on here DWARFS the take of all the bookmakers take on casino and games together, was not a great one!!


Thats not what was said. Im stunned by your naivety and lack of knowledge all underpinned by a sensationalist midset.

You ll never change your views and a faceless forum isnt a place for educating someone like you, who is advancing in years and will only become more entrenched.
Report homefortea October 24, 2011 10:48 AM BST
Honest, good point - if a punter has a muliple bet of say football and horseracing combined, in my day we were instructed to place it as a football bet (no levy).I would see no reason for this to have changed
Report toronto44 October 24, 2011 11:00 AM BST
Glad at least you have learnt that FOBTs are evil.In this argument of punters against bookmakers on here. there is a very clear case of right and wrong.Even a lot of people working day to day with FOBTs have told how much damage they are doing to ordinary people.Any person with an average amount of decency would not argue in favour of them.The only ones that have argued in favour of them, have an interest because they earn money directly off the back of other peoples misfortune.Most arguments against,started off factual and based on peoples experience and it was the bookmakers on here who turned to insults when they lost every one of these arguments.

Nothing to do with socialism,just right and wrong.If you believe so much in bosses being allowed to earn their money with no regard for others.Do you agree with the bankers earning millions off the back of sending millions into poverty?

IMO anyone who supports these FOBTs out of self interest,does need to take a good look at themselves.
Report corbiewood October 24, 2011 11:07 AM BST
Glad at least you have learnt that FOBTs are evil.


not that bright are you.
Report toronto44 October 24, 2011 11:20 AM BST
Depends who you compare me against Corb Plain
Report toronto44 October 24, 2011 11:23 AM BST
obviously basic irony goes way over your head.
Report corbiewood October 24, 2011 11:30 AM BST
if it takes you 3 minutes to make sense of a sentence then im a million to one it was intended as a double entendre.

Id love for you to publish a paper on your thesis and try and demonstrate how FOBTS are the root cause for all evil in society.
Report toronto44 October 24, 2011 11:51 AM BST
Corb come on wake up it was pretty obvious to all but the most stupid that Bolt did not really believe these machines were evil.As everything else he posted showed he still supported them.

Again try to keep up corb.I have never said these FOBTs are the root of all evil.Lots of things far worse.

Work to do now but if you have a sensible argument in favour of these machines may post later.Go back and with an open mind read all Cadizzas posts.Then go and have a good look in the mirror.
Report Banks. October 24, 2011 11:56 AM BST
The only ones that have argued in favour of them, have an interest because they earn money directly off the back of other peoples misfortune.

Not true. I make no money from them however you decide to ignore this fact because it doesn't suit your argument.
Report corbiewood October 24, 2011 12:19 PM BST
keep up the good work Toronto as long as there are people like you squealing mindless opinionated garbage posing as facts to a very limited audience on a faceless forum then the world will be a better place.

Vive la toronto.

Bravo.
Report duncan idaho October 24, 2011 12:46 PM BST
agree with toronto
Report blunt-chisel October 24, 2011 4:34 PM BST
What is a double entrade is it a starter? or a bet oop northLaugh
Report homefortea October 24, 2011 9:25 PM BST
Come back Cadizza.You have made the bravest stand out of all of these keyboard warriors.Tell us how you have got on !!
Report Steamship October 24, 2011 11:14 PM BST
Just a question to those in favour of FOBTS.

What do you think they add to a betting shop for the public?
Report Bolt October 24, 2011 11:36 PM BST
@Steamship. Either:

a) That's a dumb question, with an obvious answer - in that they add the opportunity to gamble on traditionally casino-based product to betting shop customers

or

b) It's a really shallow attempt at a straw man and what you're asking if for someone to attempt to justify the social consequences of adding gaming machines to LBOs

I'm going to assume it's b. So what you want is for someone like myself who's asserted a pro-gaming machine view to attempt to justify their existence in terms of demand, social impact and so on, to try and tell you why they're good for the public, an argument you'd of course be able to pull apart in short order.

So I'm not going to. The fact of the matter is that of course they're not in LBOs to be good for the public. They're put there to be good for the LBO. There's no social need for Gaming Machines... Of course, there's no social need for any kind of gambling, but since this isn't the gamblers anonymous website, I'd suppose you don't have an objection to that line of reasoning?

They're around for the same reason MacDonalds have the Big Mac. The same reason you can buy televisions in Tesco and Laptops from Lidl. Businesses adapt to accommodate products which effectively generate income. There's no social need for any of these things - in fact there's no need for anything except perhaps some kind of government food distribution centre.

My argument for Gaming Machines (we don't call them FOBTs any more - whoever decided using the word 'fixed' in the product name was not a PR genius) is the same as any businessman's argument for his product. It's a free market and people will buy it, either from me or someone else - so that being the case it might as well be me.
Report zilzal1 October 24, 2011 11:44 PM BST
The aggressive marketing mentioned on here flies very close to not meeting one of the three licensing compliance rules of the Gambling Commission, even if it does legally, there is no way morally it does


protecting children and vulnerable people from being harmed or exploited by gambling.
Report Bolt October 24, 2011 11:47 PM BST
How's that then? Every bookies in the land operates at least a 'Think 21' policy and don't promote externally without great care - even external marketing is vetted to ensure it's not straying too close to the line of appealing to minors. The GC are very hot on this licensing objective - especially with the major operators.
Report zilzal1 October 24, 2011 11:54 PM BST
The words Vulnerable and Exploited spring to mind, a lot of people over 21 are just that, if this kind of aggressive marketing on here is commonplace and dont forget this compliance comes with leaflets on how to spot Gamblers who are having problems(which shouldnt be hard on these things).

At one time just paying lip service to these guidelines in th eaim of "Getting every last cent they have" could backfire
Report Bolt October 24, 2011 11:58 PM BST
So you're referring I take it not to minors but to vulnerable adults? So potential or full-fledged addicts?

Guidelines are issued, but there is no obligation for any individual employee to conduct a staff-led interaction. There's a risk factor there that your average £6.00 an hour cashier isn't trained to deal with. Besides, if someone society considers responsible enough to drive to my shop, buy a pack of **** and toddle off to the pub afterwards wants to play the gaming machines, who the hell would I think I am questioning their responsibility to do that too?
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 12:02 AM BST
So what are all the leaflets and guidelines laid down from the gambling commission for in recognising problem gamblers and informing management for then??

I know there used for wiping staff's bottom's for really but they might come back to bite you one day
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 12:04 AM BST
If i go into a pub and have too much then if im served the staff CAN get legal action against them, there may come a time when the same can happen to the Gaming industry
Report Bolt October 25, 2011 12:10 AM BST
You seem to think that everyone who works for the bookies is inherently evil, zilzal1. Most of us are simply doing a retail job, like any other. A minority of us are punters ourselves, a further minority actually understand gambling in any kind of meaningful way.

So you want me to insist that my 20 year old, 9 stone Saturday girl approaches the 6 foot tattooed nutter who's punching and cursing the machines at the top of his voice to ask if he's got a gambling problem?

The gambling commission offer guidelines to customer interaction - both led by customers and staff. Staff are in no-way obliged to carry out interactions. They are advised at discretion and with a consideration of the risk involved. In fact, the last time I attempted one, I got a smashed machine, a stool thrown at me at a stream of threats to my safety and my family's.

'Cos they're a vulnerable lot, these addicts.
Report TheHonestScouser October 25, 2011 12:12 AM BST
homefortea

24 Oct 11 10:48

Honest, good point - if a punter has a muliple bet of say football and horseracing combined, in my day we were instructed to place it as a football bet (no levy).I would see no reason for this to have changed



hft

The minute the Levy was changed to turnover based with the expectation from previous year's for it in to be in racing's favour the contributions have gone t's up ever since.  Ok fobt's & the increase in football betting hasn't helped but when tax was removed from betting we were led to believe that this would lead to a massive increase in racing turnover.

I find it hard to believe that the top finance people in b*okmakers & their accountancy firms have not adjusted turnover figures in the companies' favour.  FD's & their accountants are not employed to give money away





| report block user
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 12:21 AM BST
Ive was in the Gambling industry for 30 years and started when you were not allowed to let them see in or in any way encourage em to bet

Although you were allowed to keep a hammer behind the counter and the law would usually turn a blind eye to a "tap"Laugh

Not going into the rights and wrongs of it, but IF they do decide to act if staff dont clamp down on vulnerable customers then excuses wont wash
Report guinness2dear October 25, 2011 12:31 AM BST
In fact, the last time I attempted one, I got a smashed machine, a stool thrown at me at a stream of threats to my safety and my family's.


I do hope the 6 quid an hour was worth it....
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 12:34 AM BST
And ive managed in such places as Kilburn, Harlesden, Mile End, Neasden, Commercial Road, right in the middle of Bandit Country
Report Bolt October 25, 2011 12:34 AM BST
Well sure you're getting into the rights and wrongs, zilzal1. Otherwise why raise the issue?

The question is, how do you define vulnerable? To use your own comparison, a man who's had enough alcohol can and must be refused. But he's also easy to spot. How do I reliably spot a Gaming Machine addict who's loading his baby's milk money? They're not all poor weeping wrecks of people to be pitied - they come in all varieties, I've had completely composed suit 'n' power tie wearing guys self exclude for the very same reasons as tracksuit-clad chavs who've spent the last hour booting the machine.

This, along with the risk factor I hinted at before, is what encourages me to believe it'll never happen. That's not to say I don't care. I do of course run a very effective customer-led interaction where necessary and comply with all policy and legal requirements in terms of self exclusion and offering support to problem gamblers. These aren't excuses, they're concerns. Concerns for my business and the safety of my staff - concerns that in my mind at least override taking the initiative for this particular aspect of social responsibility.
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 12:37 AM BST
If you read my last sentence i was asking what might happen if they decide to enforce the shops to SHOW they are ENFORCING the responsible gambling side rather than just issue staff with things to sign and then forget about and pay lip service to
Report Bolt October 25, 2011 12:38 AM BST
@guinness2dear

Actually, the only reason I was dumb enough to put myself at risk was to give my two Cashiers a chance to get behind the counter and out of the guy's way. Is my salary worth that? No, which is why I got the police involved and obtained a barring order along with a conviction, suspended sentence and cost of damages.

My salary's still not worth it, but I'd do it again if I had to.
Report Bolt October 25, 2011 12:42 AM BST
@zilzal1

The shops do already have to show they are enforcing responsible gambling. Certainly there are enough age verification tests happening across the board. As for vulnerable persons, they'd be the disabled, inebriated or otherwise of lessened responsibility. There's no responsibility to vet the punter for susceptibility to gambling addiction - simply to offer support if requested - and as I said before, since there's no reliable and safe way to do so, it'll never happen.
Report guinness2dear October 25, 2011 12:51 AM BST
If there wasn't "Gaming Machines" Bolt, you might not have to (which was my point)
Report Nirnaeth Arnoediad October 25, 2011 1:53 AM BST
There's a chap in my shop who's done at least £75k into the machines this year. So what do I do, give him a leaflet, he's never shown any signs of being distressed about his losses, in fact he's just back off another holiday.
Report deansthemann October 25, 2011 1:57 AM BST
Whats the biggest balance anyone has ever cashed out off a fobt Nirnaeth and Bolt in your shops ever?

There was a crowd of about ten watching and cheering a guy on the other other week in ladcrooks newbury park, his balance was just under 9 grand i was amazed and wondered what he had to stuck in there with that balance.
Report PRIVATE-H-PILE October 25, 2011 6:56 AM BST
There's a chap in my shop who's done at least £75k into the machines this year. So what do I do, give him a leaflet, he's never shown any signs of being distressed about his losses, in fact he's just back off another holiday.


do you take a tenner ew off him on a filthy ew raceLaugh
Report zilzal1 October 25, 2011 8:32 AM BST
Well if people read the leaflet it should show then the "Signs" of a problem gambler, as it says its not always the amount the customer bets, its how they behave

Signs include

Being irritable
Paranoid belief that the game is fixed
Goes home to get money repeatedly
Neglects Personal appearance

Oh well i suppose theres no hopePlain
Report squigs October 25, 2011 8:43 AM BST
It's an interesting topic on a medium where the aim is to win money off mugs, many of whom might be addicts themselves. I was told that Laddies released some internal memo recently talking about how 'machines are our DNA' It's not particularly nice is it.

People seem to talk as if the bookies previously had been about philanthropy. They are a private enterprise their traditional market is failing and it has to find a new product, they have always made money off Joe public losing money and always will. There have always been plenty of operators who weren't averse to sharp business practice throughout the years.

Importantly in this era of information we as a betting public more about them then we ever had previously, their morals haven't changed but the fact that we understand how they operate so much more has.

As a member of the public I'm against FOBT's (I don't know who would be for them) but some of the argument on here made by people nearly discredits the argument with reference to spectacular statements and considering them the root of all evil, the reason someone's grandmother will get robbed and the forum favorite dragging foreigners into the discussion somehow. I don't think hysteria does the argument against FOBT's any favour.
Report Bolt October 25, 2011 10:00 AM BST
@deansthemann

Biggest single payout I've made to a punter from the Gaming Machines was £11,174. The punter had put about £3,000 in to get that. Biggest win in terms of ROI was a lovely young Chinese lady who won £1,550 from a pound. However, in all the years I've had them in my shops I have never encountered a punter who has won off them. Not ever. I sincerely doubt I ever will.

Squigs makes a good point. Bookies have always won money from mugs, but these days the mugs have every bit of support, eduction and information at their fingertips. Gaming Machines are still the fastest growing product in retail betting.

And yes, zilzal1. I know what the GC leaflets say. However, my advice to every one of my staff has always been the same. If a punter wants help he'll ask for it - interfering prior to that point even with the best of intentions is likely to simply make you a target for the anger and guilt he's directing at himself. The first step in dealing with a gambling problem is admitting you have one.
Report cadizza October 25, 2011 10:18 AM BST
Down to personal opinion I guess regarding whether FOBT'S

I can't work for a firm who push them so so aggressively and who are basically liars and the nature of those higher up has just become far too much now. A lot of bad has gone on that I cannot really talk about on here but if anyone is keen to know they can pm me.

The job in the shops has changed so much in the last 8 years, so many people coming in to the game now at a higher level have no inkling at all about Sport and even Gambling Markets - I honestly think many would struggle to describe what a Trap Challenge or a Total Distances bet was to a punter and many still are struggling with the concept of over/under 2.5 goals - this is Senior Management by the way not 19 year old Cashiers etc..

The problem is that "Bookmaking" on the High Street is all centred around Retail and sell, sell, sell. I thought of various ideas which I would say would say are not addictive bets and presented them to Senior Managers such as "Every home Team to Score in the Premier League this weekend" but there was no interest from them - it's all about the FOBT'S these days and nobody can deny it. They don't want people having a free £5 on the Barcelona v Getafe match that evening they want them having it on the FOBT as that is where the profit is.

The game has changed - some can change with it but it certainly ain't what I got in to it for now, good luck to those who are going forward in the shops but it ain't for me - sick of people speaking down about Betting Shop Workers as scum for starters when the truth is most simply are not and are under so much pressure from those above that they actually want out asap themselves. Young people start in the Shops now and most want out within 2 months once they start to understand what it's all about and how depressing many shops are.
Report Thin and Crispy October 25, 2011 10:31 AM BST
I suppose its just a question of a person's own morality...what are they prepared to do for money?  The lines can be blurred by the something being legal in one place and not in another.   I see FOBT as a pernicious influence and bookmakers who actively promote them the way that Drug Dealers do as  cynical exploition that puts profit before morality .  However as has been said its not just FOBT and any banning of them would have repercussions elsewhere especially in Online gambling.
Report jair1970 October 26, 2011 1:37 AM BST
Signs of a problem FOBT gambler:

1. Discovers FOBT roulette
2. Wife leaves
3. Loses job
4. Sells car, purchases bike
5. Spends reasonably lucrative pension at start of month solely on machines (99.5%) and cigarettes (0.5%). 
   Arrives soon after bookies open, leaves as late as possible
6. Spends rest of month poncing coffees, watching and 'helping' other machine players with 'expert strategy'
7. Bank forecloses on house, made homeless
8. Repeats steps 5 & 6 whilst being fed by soup kitchens and living rough
9. Claims to be reformed and enjoying homelessness
10. Repeats steps 5 & 6

And so on...
Report toronto44 October 26, 2011 1:53 AM BST
Yes but as Bolt tells us, nothing wrong with that.....its just business.
Report corbiewood October 26, 2011 7:30 AM BST
the usual people forgetting they are posting on a remote based gaming platform that aggressively advertises to vulnerable people at strategic points in the day (or night)to enhance there ever growing market share of the colossal online games casino market.

But the dinosaurs still think the coal face is at street level. Kinda explains the socialist undertones.
Report cadizza October 26, 2011 11:10 AM BST
What point are you trying to make with that corbiewood?

Apologies I have not got a degree in Politics or ever worked in Greenside House.
Report PRIVATE-H-PILE October 26, 2011 1:05 PM BST
Ive worked in a Greenhouse.Happy
Report corbiewood October 27, 2011 9:19 AM BST
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