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22 Dec 10 10:33
Date Joined: 01 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 263 | Blogger: shiner's blog
If you want BF to be banned from the track then you will have to find a bookmaker at the track to take a decent bet. Speaking from personal experience at Hove the books there have balls the size of thimbles and would be scared to death if you approached them with a sizeable wager without looking at their machines.
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Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:13 PM GMT
As I have said on here a no. of times, I would like to the end of on-course bookmakers at Greyhound tracks. I'd like to see the on-course tote have low deductions and compete with Betfair. If the on-course tote also committed to link tote turnover to improved prize money and facilities, the tracks would do better imo. The owners would prefer to bet with the on-course tote if they were getting a decent return and saw the link between betting and improved prize money and facilities. If I were running a track, I'd view the bookmakers as a large revenue loss to potential business.
Report SatelliteFlight December 22, 2010 12:21 PM GMT
I'd better open a Star Sports account seen as, i will have no problem getting on and will be treated as a proper and appreciated client. Grin

Or is that just until i take them for 400,000 and then they close my account, obviously they where not appreciated clients Devil
Report Mustapha Bath December 22, 2010 12:33 PM GMT
Can't agree Huggy, Track bookmakers add to the atmosphere of a night at the dogs. Gamblers
want to know where they stand when placing a bet. I would hate to be at Romford on a Monday night
have a score on my fancy then watch the odds go down when our "Polish Friend" decides to stick
his "One Thouzan" on the same dog!!.
You will drive away the lifeblood of the track away (not that it has not gone already).
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:36 PM GMT
I have been to Romford most Fridays for a bit over 2 years now and you could count the number of bets I have placed with on-course bookmakers on one hand.
Report Mustapha Bath December 22, 2010 12:39 PM GMT
Thats coz we can't prize you away from "The Toffs Bar" and mix with "The Rif-Raff" Silly
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:40 PM GMT
It's because I have little chance of winning at the margins they bet to.
Report Mustapha Bath December 22, 2010 12:42 PM GMT
You can always bring your phone!!!! [;)]
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:43 PM GMT
The only reason I drink in the restaurant is because my mate always has. Looking at the meals served in there, I doubt there are too many toffs about.
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:45 PM GMT
I wonder if the Irish mob send Ben a Christmas card. Devil
Report Mustapha Bath December 22, 2010 12:45 PM GMT
Your mate seems to have enjoyed the meals there over the years!!!!!! Laugh

(Sorry Jim!!!) Plain
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:47 PM GMT
I do always bring my phone. I'd rather have the option of betting in a tote with a 5-10 % deduction all pools. I'd be having 3-field bets all night! Laugh
Report Mustapha Bath December 22, 2010 12:50 PM GMT
Sorry for the thread Hi-Jack Shiner, just sticking up for the union of:

Save Our Dog Odds Makers!!!!
Report Stow_judge December 22, 2010 12:57 PM GMT
You can have the OCGOM, the off-course Greyhound Odds Makers. Let's see them compete with Betfair and a tote pool on course betting to 5-10%. The value for the punters could be superb.
Report par December 22, 2010 1:29 PM GMT
I have never had the pleasure of meeting Mr Keith, but I had to look twice when it said he was 31
Report Mr Stupid December 22, 2010 4:21 PM GMT
when only one dog gets backed a race your 1/25 shot wont look great value..

Can you imagine going to mildenhall and having a carpet on the toteCry
Report Iris of mayfair December 23, 2010 6:58 PM GMT
Very boring R.P story.  Who is this bloke who if he has a chance, would invite Blair to dinner?  Do me a favourite! A deeply boring fella who sold out Labour and fell in love with Bush, Burlesconi and Aznar.

I'd go for Coleman, Knight, Clemenson, Pilger and  Tutu
Report Iris of mayfair December 23, 2010 7:05 PM GMT
"Balls the size of thimbles".  What if the Thimbles belong to Butchers?  They have big fat fingers and therefore would accordingly need sizeable thimbles.  If the the Hove Bookies have butcher- thimble- balls, does that allude to their daring machismo?

Is there any causal link between size of testes and bravery in the betting ring?  And can you relate bravery simply to the size of bet taken, or, do you have to integrate factors such as the wealth of the bookie or her or his capacity to lay off?
Report Slippy Blue December 23, 2010 7:32 PM GMT
Par, I thought the very same! I'm 44 and look younger than him if that is his real age Laugh
Report Jack Stirling December 23, 2010 9:05 PM GMT
This is a bit like the chicken and the egg, and as I do think that the books would be more competetive if there were more punters and money in the ring I wouldn't be against a ban on betfair at dog and horse tracks. As for the tote; it serves a function for the small and fun bets, but won't work for anyone who wants a price on his lumpy bet.
Report Catford Toteboard December 23, 2010 11:05 PM GMT
BK has been on and on about this for at least the last five years. He hates BF and he hated Channel 425 because they threaten his margin and turnover respectively.
He tried to make a go of it at the Stow but wasn't as clever as he thought he was and got taken for a few quid, after nicking the other books' best customers. Pioneer of the king size Stow brolly when it wasn't even raining!
He tries to dress up his blatant self interest as concern for the sport but the last two BGRF reports don't show Star as a payer of the voluntary levy.
Don't know if he has ever sponsored a race or comp but I don't think I've seen one.
He's got a great PR firm working for him now though, I know that much Laugh
Report matso December 23, 2010 11:32 PM GMT
Catford.. you say that he hates Betfair, but he must use it all the time, as anyone who as played with his firm will tell you.. you can only get on with his firm if you are prepared to take under the odds.
Report Catford Toteboard December 23, 2010 11:46 PM GMT
I've heard that too matso, which would make him a hypocrite.
Report Petticoat Lane 1 December 24, 2010 1:09 AM GMT
Catford i remember Mr Keith arbing at Catford in the early days of BF. He must have won a fair few quid!
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 10:08 AM GMT
I'm fairly sure Star racing sponsored some racing at the Stow.
Report sharpeshooter..... December 24, 2010 10:09 AM GMT
b fair ruined dog racing the mans a pric .k,track bookmakers have ruined
dog racing betting to 40% plus for generations bookmakers have thieved it of mug punters now a great innovation like bf come along they cant cope.there judgement is clueless in comparison to punters who put the leg work in,track bookmakers hide behind 40 % and still wont lay a bet fact.ive been betting dogs for 30 years and find myself in a position where i cant get a bet on a dog track or in the im going to open an account with this joker in the new year i wonder how long i will last ?
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 10:15 AM GMT
Jack Stirling
" As for the tote; it serves a function for the small and fun bets, but won't work for anyone who wants a price on his lumpy bet."
I take your point. However, you are thinking of the tote's as they are now, not the stronger version without no on-track bookmakers. The on-track totes should allow off-course bets into all the pools via web portals. If the deduction was low enough, the pools at a no. of tracks should be pretty strong.
We'd also have Betfair covering some tracks and you'd assume the off-course firms would have an industry SP and some early prices at some tracks.
Many countries manage very well without bookmakers. The facilities and entry fees are normally much better than ours. (I guess I'm talking mostly about Horse racing tracks here) We would need a very different model here to compete with Betfair. I have always believed that the on-course totes should go for higher volumes, with lower deductions.
Report sharpeshooter..... December 24, 2010 10:42 AM GMT
ben keith dosnt approve of bf same old story bookmakers slagging bf off for over 10 years now.  what fooking hypocrites they are , try and get it banned yet they all use it now .i wonder if ben keith and his firm look at bf when they take bets because there odds compilers are clueless ill leave you to draw YOURE OWN CONCLUSION ?
Report sharpeshooter..... December 24, 2010 10:44 AM GMT
does anybody know this ben keith does his company use or look at bf whan taking bets ?
Report theres only one best tonic December 24, 2010 10:53 AM GMT
if arbing was an olympic sport BK would have more medals than steve redgrave
Report sharpeshooter..... December 24, 2010 10:56 AM GMT
brilliant tonic ive had a face liked a smacked all morning thats cheered me up
Report Win only - Sp only December 24, 2010 11:08 AM GMT
funny that the shows are so bent at bags tracks, when they actually do have the machine in front of them.
Report DONEMYLOT December 24, 2010 11:40 AM GMT
I don't respond on the forums much now due to various reasons but just have to do so here.

I am not going to stick up a defence for any bookmaker these days, but again as above, from personal experience of going dog racing for fifteen years 3 or 4 times a week, I never had a problem with most bookmakers. Indeed, I would say (clued or not)that the majority were very fair, taking and paying out.

Having spent a good 8 or so years betting very regularly at Romford, the bookmakers always took a decent bet to a few quid to a few people. I then moved to regulkar Open visits where books were also very fair, and that was when I turned up for the infrequent Opens only. I then  moved to WAlthamstow just as BF was beginning to get its teeth into the game and without question it was the machine that started to ruin the entire experience. Aart from a couple of rare boks, the machine ruled the prices. Whether that was smartarse punters trying to feck the marjet or not, it meant less money on the track, it caused dodgy dealings with arbers and it caused the bookmakers to change from what they were.

AS for taking money, I can go back to the early 2000s, when bets of 1000 were laid very regularly at places like Rye House and Mildenhall off a bookmakers tissue that was done ny the men in charge and not punters on the sofa.

Now look at bags, completely fecked. Mainly by the off-course punter on the frikin mobile trying to earn a few quid by manipulating the market. In my opinion it isn't clever, it isn't a protest and it has ruined the game. I have mixed with owners and punters for years and very very few would have been part of a manipuilative process as they are today, just to earn a few quid.

It is indeed a chicken and egg situation. The drive to a far off track to take a genuine 6-4 about a dog I made 11-10 soon went and all the above combined to being offered probably nearer the 11-10. Any longshot was never the price it was , as some fool made it alert on the machine. That made it impossible to play on course for any seriousness and has caused what we have today.

I'm not entirely sure that it is anyones 'fault' per se, but I find it hard to believe that genuine punters are screaming at the bookmakers and not looking elsewhere as well.

AS for Ben. He was always very good overall at The Stow. He runs a business after all, though I havent had a bet with him for a few years, his reputation seems to have gone downhill which is a shame and at least he or his board had a view on certain dogs and didnt just follow like sheep.

Oh well, I guess really that summs up why I dont play the game that seriously any longer, I just had to express surprise at the vitriol on the page against bookmakers when it is mainly other factrors that have caused such a downfall.

Merry Christmas to all, and Good Luck to the Greyhound Industry. It would be a joy to see it back to the level talked about above.
Report ripped off December 24, 2010 11:45 AM GMT
Ben was a massive contributing factor in BF being banned at Walthamstow.  Within a couple of years of it being outlawed and anybody being seen on a phone being treated like a criminal the place was closed.
Report ripped off December 24, 2010 11:47 AM GMT
Ben then stood at Cov with no BF around on a Sunday night and went skint....  He knows the game Laugh
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 11:52 AM GMT
If they thought that they had to ban it, they should have banned it outside and within view of the bookmaker boards only. I used it in the hideaway bar from when it started, to when the track closed. I missed no more than a handful of evening meetings per year. I owned Greyhounds for years over there, spent plenty over the bar & played the tote forecasts/trifectas.
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 11:54 AM GMT
Star racing were certainly a good bookmaker at the Stow. I hear the Irish mob really liked them.
T & F were different class. Mark Trillwood was a real gent.
Report DONEMYLOT December 24, 2010 11:57 AM GMT
Okay. A simple question.

Did you make money before BF? I actually did better before it cam along. AS naieve and simplistic as my view and methods may be, it worked and stopped working after wards.

Ho hum. Thats my lot anyway!

GL all

---the dogs are the stars---
Report Jack Stirling December 24, 2010 12:14 PM GMT
I still can't believe that anyone who owns a dog would leave it to those who play the tote to determine what price they get. When I place a bet on one of my own I do so because I know what the price is, and feel that it's fair, and I'm also quite happy to take a tissue price if I think it's fair. And if my hound is a lot shorter than I think it should be I don't bet. You wouldn't buy something from a shop if you didn't know how much it was going to cost you.
Report roo December 24, 2010 2:42 PM GMT
The 2 american sports betters that beat ben for 800k a corner in his article must have had more than 100 quid on lads 

Report Corner x Corner December 24, 2010 2:48 PM GMT
We have gone a whole topic with Star Man without mentioning Sittingbourne on a sunday night! Open race meeting every weekend and my god, he done his conrads.

The same man that use to turn over thousands at cheltenham back in the day... The man who also stood at cheltenham beside him is the man to try and get on with.. i wont mention any names, but he stands at a track still to this day.
Report Mustapha Bath December 24, 2010 3:05 PM GMT
Unfortunately many punters are forced to use Betfair as the can't get all of their wanted
stake on the books. (its not just that the prices are better).
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 3:24 PM GMT
Donemylot. Before Betfair, I made it pay at the Stow , but did not win on other sports. The  video racecard I invented gave me a real edge. I could watch the last 8 races of every Greyhound on the card at the click of a button. I had this edge for a few years, while most where fumbling around with a pile of videos/dvds. Also, the fact that I went to virtually every evening meeting for years.

Jack Stirling, I used to bet on the tote at the Stow in the win market when the price was right. The tote was pretty strong on open nights and Saturday's. You could have 1-200 on. I believe that if we had an on-course tote monopoly, the hard working punters could still win, as they would still find the value across the different markets, be it win, forecasts, or tricasts. At the Stow, many of the forecast & tricast bets, which did not include the fav winning, paid decent dividends. The six pack element of the punting crowd & mug money provided fair value for the hard working regulars.
Report Jack Stirling December 24, 2010 3:39 PM GMT
Stow-judge, of course a strong tote would stand up to the bigger bets without prices crashing completely, but if I take a price I know what I'm getting and don't want it altered by what goes on afterwards like betting at sp. My dog, so my choice to take or not the price offered to me by a bookie. I can't believe that a few years ago you would have spent hours deciding that Billy Bonds would win at the Wick only to back it at rubbish odds on the tote because he was an East End legend.
Report Stow_judge December 24, 2010 3:44 PM GMT
best have it on on the machine or at the off-track prices then m8
Report Jack Stirling December 24, 2010 3:48 PM GMT
I'd do well to do that at places like Mildenhall. Think I'll stick to betting best price with the bookies.
Report matso December 24, 2010 5:19 PM GMT
We all know what an inovation Betfair as been.. but I honestly believe that it as ruined the game.. Horses & Dogs especially the on - course game .
Report ebulGery December 24, 2010 6:26 PM GMT
you may well be right matso

yes it has been wonderful for the punter, for me anyway
to bet at 105%...100% + 5% commission..makes a big difference to me

but nothing is for has killed on course market and could well kill
dog racing

although tbf I think internet betting as a whole(inc off course bookes)
has hit the on course layers as it is so convenient
and there is such a wide range of things to bet on now

although off course bookies will ban winning punters
so they are forced back to on course market
which cannot happen on b/f
Report matso December 24, 2010 8:19 PM GMT
ebulGery... I think the only way out of this on - course mess, is to let the tracks have betfair terminals all over the course. as if you are a punter on - course, you know that every price you look at on a bookmakers board is worse than that on betfair, so any serious player cannot attend live on-course racing as he knows he is taking under the odds.
I love the old way of going racing, but sadly that way as now passed and it pains me to say that the on-course bookmaking game as now gone.. the punters know it and the bookies know it even more, its a dying game and the sooner it is put out of its misery the better.

But even that drastic action might be to late to save the on-course game... and thats sad !!
Report ebulGery December 24, 2010 8:42 PM GMT
agree matso
although pretty well all mobiles run b/f
you dont even need terminals

I suppose if bookies would bet to 110% and take a decent bet and no exchanges that would be an answer
but that be like trying to put the genie back in the bottle
and I would not trust bookies to keep to itSad

Also in the old days there was no off course dvds/videos so punters had to go to track
to watch races..but then with 2 8 race meetings a week it was possible , it is not possible now,
too many meetings and too many racesSad

To recharge the game I think it would take an investment in stadia as in Ireland
to get large numbers of people back to track
but too much of a risk and no government backing so it will not happen

we will end up with one bookie per track imo
Report matso December 24, 2010 8:58 PM GMT
ebulGery.. the games up Im afraid, mind you I think I was refering more to the horse racing side of things.. as for the dogs, as im london based theres nowhere for me to go..cant have romford or wimbledon so since the stow went.....along with many others Ive sadly lost touch with the dog game, and I was a regular player and owner for donkeys years !!
Report track record December 24, 2010 9:08 PM GMT
was watching "please sir" this morning ( yes i know) and one of the boys b4 going to bed in his prayers asked god to make trap 3 win at catford
Report matso December 24, 2010 9:15 PM GMT
It got beat a Sh/Hd
Report ebulGery December 24, 2010 9:26 PM GMT
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