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bobovieri
21 Feb 13 10:00
Joined:
Date Joined: 13 Jul 08
| Topic/replies: 9,021 | Blogger: bobovieri's blog
I'm pretty sucesfull and month by month I can make good profit here.

But, I wanna know some experience from people who are here full time, betfair professionals.

1. How your life is?
2. Minus and plus of that kind of life (I don't think about money)
3. Is harder to bet when You know that betfair is only way to make a money?


Thanks in advance...
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Report Coachbuster March 20, 2013 2:06 PM GMT
i  guess another problem is finding enough test matches Grin
Report sweetchildofmine March 20, 2013 2:07 PM GMT
theres always tests on usually, but then you have 20/20 matches which are also great to trade
Report Coachbuster March 20, 2013 3:41 PM GMT
i didn't realise that sweetchild -  good luck anyway , sounds a good little number
Report CASHINVEST March 21, 2013 12:09 AM GMT
PMSL AT THE DREAMERS ON THIS FORUM




BUNCH OF LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS
Report sweetchildofmine March 21, 2013 12:13 AM GMT
heres another one ..where on earth do they come from
Report racingguru March 21, 2013 2:28 AM GMT
Not a Betfair full-timer as find this place much harder to win at than bookies (for horses) as no liquidity here but am a "pro" in that gambling is my only income. In reponse to the OP.

1 - Life is much better in that time is used more efficiently. No wasted time commuting etc and you are the master of your own destiny. No more office/work politics to needlessly occupy your mind.

2 - Minus points - Interaction with people, keeping belief and patience when going through a bad run,harder to get mortagage etc, social stigma and obviously no guarantee of income.
  - Plus Points - No one to answer to, manage your own time, more efficient use of time, more time off (dependent on if you specialise), financially better off if you are good.

3 - I was part time for many years before going full-time pro and yes it is "harder" when you know gambling is your only source of income in that the pressure is more. This feeling lasts for a year to year and half then like all things you get used to it. Obviously you need to plan well for the bad run especially if you deal with volatile sports like horses where you can long bad runs.

One negative point and think you might want to bear it in mind is that its pretty much a black hole when you enter in to full time pro gambling in that you'll find it very hard to get into any other employment and you won't have the desire to do any "regular" work. Its just hard to have the mentality to work for $X an hour when on a good day you could easily make what people make in 1-2 months.

Hope that helps. I've been pro for almost 5 years so if you have any further questions PM me.
Report JetLoneStar March 22, 2013 3:41 AM GMT
I started my attempt to go pro about 5 months ago and these are my experiences thus far.

1. It's obviously better being you're own boss, waking up when you want and not answering to anyone.

2. Interaction with people or lack there of; pressure that comes with BF being your sole income, not to mention the mentally draining bad runs. Sometimes I do wonder whether it's all worth it, but on a good day it's clear that if successful it would be a far superior way of life.

3. Definately harder knowing that you 'need' to make a profit. Im an in-running player and whereas before I would instinctively click a bet knowing the result didn't affect my greater life, now i'm fully aware of the consequences, and as such this can make split-second decisions alot harder to make.

Overall Ive made a steady profit each month, although im only 60% of where I planned to be; I put this down to the lowering of the stakes I initially planned to use as I found myself dodging bets when using the larger stakes. Hoping that as time goes on my 'balls' will return as the steady consistent profit shows me Im capable of making this work.

Anyway im just getting started so best to listen to some of the vets on here, just my 2c :)
Report Biscuit1979 March 22, 2013 11:13 AM GMT
Does anyone on here forsee a time in the near future where betfair might end up banned in this country too? Slowly but surely more and more countries are banning it. Obviously there are ways round it for now but if it was ever banned in the UK, that'd be the end.
Report use2begudear March 22, 2013 11:21 AM GMT
Why would it be banned in the UK ? We allow betting shops to populate our high streets taking millions of pounds from FOBT's while any punter that is seen in any way to be succesful won't be able to get more than a tenner on Laugh
Report Biscuit1979 March 22, 2013 11:28 AM GMT
why is betfair banned anywhere?
Report sweetchildofmine March 22, 2013 4:13 PM GMT
bookies are banned in some of those countries biscuit, down to each nations government legislation
Report racingguru March 22, 2013 5:55 PM GMT
Not that it will ever happen but if BF were to go it would be good for early price horse punters in that bookies would make even more ricks than they already do.
Report sweetchildofmine March 22, 2013 6:19 PM GMT
whether or not betfair survives, i think exchange betting is here to stay
Report sweetchildofmine March 22, 2013 6:20 PM GMT
as an aside i stepped into the bookies today, first time in ages and couldnt stay more than 5 minutes..what a soulless place, fruit machines and roulette ringing in your ears and the horse racing turned right down and barely audible
Report mikenz March 22, 2013 9:48 PM GMT
making a living, spose you could but gee it would be a hard way to survive, need to have plenty of equity to start , would you risk it all?
Report mikenz March 22, 2013 9:49 PM GMT

Mar 22, 2013 -- 7:20PM, sweetchildofmine wrote:


as an aside i stepped into the bookies today, first time in ages and couldnt stay more than 5 minutes..what a soulless place, fruit machines and roulette ringing in your ears and the horse racing turned right down and barely audible


i actually cant really be bothered with hearing race commentaries these days, gets on my wick

Report racingguru March 22, 2013 11:02 PM GMT
Mikenz - making a living, spose you could but gee it would be a hard way to survive, need to have plenty of equity to start , would you risk it all?

Not sure what you'd define as plenty of equity but I started out betting at pro status with 20k and that for "value" pick horses where you can go long runs without winners. It's more about how much turnover you can generate at acceptable risk levels with that bank. I think for sports 10-15k would be sufficient to start and if that's "risking it all" you shouldn't be betting in the first place.
Report Coachbuster March 22, 2013 11:32 PM GMT
racing guru - that was an excellent post @ 02.28  - could not have put that any better myself  ,all the points raised are very valid imo
Report sweetchildofmine March 22, 2013 11:34 PM GMT
i particularly liked jetonestars post
Report Coachbuster March 22, 2013 11:36 PM GMT
yes - interesting 5 months  , wish jetlonestar all the best of luck
Report Coachbuster March 22, 2013 11:37 PM GMT
sweetchild -  i haven't been in a bookies since the dispensed of the massage chairs  Laugh
Report Coachbuster March 22, 2013 11:37 PM GMT
they * Grin
Report sweetchildofmine March 22, 2013 11:46 PM GMT
massage chairs....ours had deck chairs  Surprised
Report Coachbuster March 23, 2013 12:15 AM GMT
Grin
Report kt22 March 23, 2013 10:41 AM GMT
English run,they have a knack of sucking all hope and dreams out of a corpse.
Report smithy91 September 11, 2013 12:38 PM BST
Just read through this excellent thread! Would be suprised to see the company I work for last another 12 months! :(. Any updates on how things have gone?
Report funkymonkey September 11, 2013 10:11 PM BST
I have been a part-time "pro" on here for 8 years and one comment I often hear mentioned on these type of threads is how if you go into this line of work, then your resume will read like a big black empty space that will be of detriment to future employment.

I have never agreed with that belief. It is perfectly possible, in my view, to pick your hours when doing this, and continue other ventures and I think given the lifestyle of trading, it often attracts the kind of character who would always choose self-employment over working for a company anyway.

That is certainly the case for me. I have spent almost my entire adult life creating businesses and then selling them and then creating something else, the passion being in the creation of it, not so much in the financial reward.

It would never cross my mind that there isn't a job opportunity ahead, because i see those as self-created avenues.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if there is a doubt in the mind regarding a lack of CV credentials due to dedicating a lot of time to something like trading, maybe this means it isn't a choice that would really align with that persons personality.

Likewise with the solitude aspect of working alone hour after hour. Personally I love that, but most people do not. I think it takes a certain kind of "oddball" to really love doing this, and I am happy to include myself in that category.
Report dizzydavid1 September 12, 2013 3:19 AM BST
Interesting thread, with, apart from Ivor, a refreshing lack of boasting. Fair play to all those clever enough to make a living from betting. I've been here over ten years but I could do another five decades and I'd still never make a living from it. Miraculously I'm in lifetime profit here but it'd probably work out at an hourly rate far less than a char wallah was earning in Imperial India.
Report raspberrybottom September 12, 2013 11:34 AM BST
I've been on here just coming up to eight years - and I still find it fun !

And that's what I think is most important. I don't make a living here but win often

enough to stay focussed. I've often thought of going "part-time" and, due to a change

of circumstances that mean I could be coming into a bit of money soon, I might give it a go.

June, July and August have been the best three months I've ever had on the horses so I may be

getting a bit carried away but it's time I had a real go at this. I also bet on football (unders/overs)

and I think the winter all-weather racing can be very lucrative. Most of my threads (the darts one

and the rollercoaster, etc) are meant in fun but the serious methods I use lead me to concentrate

mainly on horses at 8/1+ with plenty of double-figure selections. As has been said earlier long

losing runs are worrying and that's my main concern.
Report gawdalmighty September 12, 2013 11:56 AM BST
Likewise with the solitude aspect of working alone hour after hour. Personally I love that, but most people do not. I think it takes a certain kind of "oddball" to really love doing this, and I am happy to include myself in that category.


My sentiments exactly, funkymonkey
Report Stringer September 13, 2013 11:37 AM BST
why is betfair banned anywhere?


tax
Report Greg_Gory September 29, 2014 9:24 PM BST
.
Report bilbobaggins September 30, 2014 5:01 PM BST
Interesting points in the main. As for the solitude obviously it helps if, like me, you are a fully paid up member of the misanthropic society!!.
Report takethestand September 30, 2014 9:22 PM BST
Wonder if the guy ever made the leap. 

I'm still wondering about giving it another go.  Got other income streams and wife has a good job so a little of the pressure gone.

On a weeks holidays and have covered my wages already by Wednesday.  Been out everyday on day trips with Mrs.  It seems a great life but............
Report takethestand September 30, 2014 9:23 PM BST
oh yeah Mrs is miffed we cant start our day (meant to be on holiday) until champions league is finished at 9.30am
Report Westender October 1, 2014 10:04 PM BST
Some full timers left when the premium charges were introduced and most left when it increased to 40%.

Cannot see anyone trusting Betfair enough to pack in a job.
Report NorwichRob October 2, 2014 6:01 PM BST
Only just read first page as time short but so far best thread ever read on bf punting, well done to the contributors.
Report dlarssonf October 3, 2014 11:31 AM BST
Great thread with some great comments and interaction   One Thing I strongly disagree with that has been mentioned is "I trade now I don't Gamble" .... people think by saying they trade it is magically better, its not, TRADING IS GAMBLING it's just not going about it in the conventional sense
Report smithy91 October 6, 2014 12:57 PM BST
Can't be anyone on here thinking of going full time unless making 3-4k a month surely. Not exactly safe is it? :/
Report YOMOMMA October 6, 2014 2:09 PM BST
No it's dire. Be like bet daq before you know it.
Report Westender October 6, 2014 5:02 PM BST
Betfair killed the dream of full timers with the premium charges and most left.

People are going elsewhere now to bet or spending their money on non betting activities.

Many posters have provided constructive feedback to Betfair but they simply ignore and plough their own path to self destruction.

Nobody surely would give up a job these days to go full time on Betfair particularly with the Betfair Management Strategy of hiding the Exchange, no longer advertising the Exchange and charging consistent winners between 22.5% and 62.5% in charges.

There is simply no incentive for people to remain on Betfair. Cry
Report smithy91 October 6, 2014 7:44 PM BST
Good post westender. Just as I thought part time trading is the way forward :)
Report YOMOMMA October 6, 2014 9:03 PM BST
i wouldnt even recommend part time trading unless u can make it pay. spend ur free time more wisely.
Report smithy91 October 7, 2014 9:25 AM BST
I think there's still more than enough opportunities to get decent amounts matched in the primary markets match odds, correct score and under/over. If someone doing this part time could potentially add £500 a month to their full time salary it's got to be worthwhile.  That could potentially pay for your mortgage, bills and even holidays without having nothing left of your wage at the end of the month!
Report HonkyJoe October 7, 2014 2:16 PM BST
Trading properly is still 'work' though, to some degree. If you, for instance, do a job through the day, and then trade in the evening, it means you'll end up spending your free hours 'working' as well. What's the point, just for a few extra hundred?

It generally takes discipline and dedication to make money on BF. Only ever doing it part-time just seems a way of making your life rather strained.

But if, ultimately, you can be looking to make £3K-£4K a month, and could look to give up a modest job, that would make more sense.
Report Westender October 7, 2014 6:57 PM BST
True mate and people were packing in jobs to go FT on Betfair until 2008 when the premium charges kicked in.

Most of the full timers left when they realised that they could earn more money cleaning toilets after Betfair took a large slice of the pie.

With the exception of a few, Betfair is the only real winner on this site with many people simply fighting over crumbs now.
Report Baby Jesus October 7, 2014 8:00 PM BST
Probably not worth the effort to go full time on here anymore, if you're good enough to win on here it's only a matter of time before you'd be paying 40% upwards and in fairness if you can do it on here you should be clever enough to earn similar elsewhere without the earnings cap.

Betfair's continual greed to squeeze every last penny out of the exchange with PC and cross matching etc has pretty much killed the exchange concept dead, had potential to grow a lot bigger than it has. Worst thing to happen to betting exchanges was when Betfair bought out Flutter, they still pretty much use flutters exchange layout to this day and it's hard to see what innovations betfair actually came up with except their flops. These days seems Betfair are just happy to be the same as any other run of the mill internet bookmaker and safetly plod along for the shareholders.
Report Templeton Peck October 12, 2014 10:46 AM BST
Baby Jesus
07 Oct 14 20:00 Joined: 21 May 01 | Topic/replies: 239 | Blogger: Baby Jesus's blog
Probably not worth the effort to go full time on here anymore, if you're good enough to win on here it's only a matter of time before you'd be paying 40% upwards and in fairness if you can do it on here you should be clever enough to earn similar elsewhere without the earnings cap.


I could earn a similar amount if I returned to the City but I'd much rather do this for a living than be someone's employee.  As for an earnings cap, there's less of a cap here than being an employee, it just depends on how hard you want to work.
Report Templeton Peck October 12, 2014 11:20 AM BST
1. How your life is?
2. Minus and plus of that kind of life (I don't think about money)
3. Is harder to bet when You know that betfair is only way to make a money?

1)  After uni, I worked in the City for 8 years but I didn't suit it, let alone enjoy it.  So I quit (2008) to trade the stock market for myself - I had spent my working days creating a strategy - and also study Betfair as I was aware it was possible to make a living from it but had not found the time to investigate.

Unfortunately, the stock market went crazy, my strategy didn't work in such conditions (as I knew it wouldn't but took a risk I wouldn't step straight into such volatile markets) and so I lost all my money.  That forced me to look into Betfair and with just a few hundred quid, I discovered what I later realised was called arbing.  That progressed into trading and onto outright position taking.  I do everything manually, I don't use software and bet on various sports but not the horses/dogs.

Betting has been my sole income for 5 years. I'm in my mid 30s and: I rent (I can't get a mortgage and haven't made enough to buy outright).  I'm single (I'd rather spend my weekends betting than shopping/watching X-Factor/hanging out with girlfriend's friends).  All my friends have left London (where I live) and started families (so live very different lives).  My weight has increased by c.40% (I snack on junk food rather than eat proper meals and spend too long not leaving my desk for anything but toilet breaks).

2)  However, I'd still much rather do this than anything else. It's fun. It's interesting. It's a challenge. I have motivation to work as I see on a daily basis the harder I work and the smarter I am, the more I make. I have freedom to work how and when I want. In short, life's much more interesting doing this than the eight years I spent in the City. I don't spend every day waiting for it to end and every weekend hoping it never does.

The downsides, apart from those pointed out in 1), are that it's becoming much harder.  Every year there something new, whether it's 40-60% PC, the Sportsbook stealing the dumb punters, Betfair extending their tentacles into markets, markets becoming much more efficient, the proliferation of bots, Pinnacle (and others) being forced to no longer accept UK business.  This is a major concern.  Gross winnings (i.e. ex PC) were 66% higher in 2011 than 2010, 33% higher in 2012 than 2011, 25% higher in 2013 than 2012, but this year will probably be 35% lower than last year. 

Another downside is most sport takes place at the weekend and evenings, so very anti-social working hours.  If you concentrate on events that take place purely during the day, I expect you have much tougher competition as a higher % of the markets filled with other pros.

3) I've only bet seriously when it's been my only source of income. Before this, I was nothing more than your average Saturday afternoon £10 punter.  Personally, I think it's probably easier as I wouldn't put the work in if I had a salary. 

In brief, if you enjoy working for someone else, then I'd probably stick to it.  There's too much uncertainty surrounding the betting world to take the risk of giving it up.  If you don't want to be an employee, quit.  You'll earn a decent amount on here for next few years but what's more, you'll realise you're better off spending your life doing what you enjoy rather than chasing a pay cheque which merely covers your expenses.
Report smithy91 October 13, 2014 5:44 AM BST
@ Templeton peck- interesting post that. I'm always eating junk food and mainly last season found myself putting weight on. I've signed up to the gym now £23 a month. I only go twice a week and do intense cardio for 30 mins then back home to trade. Makes me feel better about myself doing that extra bit of excercise!
Report gawdalmighty October 14, 2014 1:42 PM BST
Templeton Peck, excellent post, honest and realistic. Agree 100%
Report Templeton Peck October 14, 2014 7:14 PM BST
smithy91, £23 a month!  Mine's £80+.  Which leads me to an interesting point I forgot to mention: you can live wherever you like (in the UK) and so can cut your cost of living if you so wish.  I've continued to live in central London despite the fact all my friends have moved out/abroad. I could move out of town, slash my rent/bills and really not notice much difference considering the type of life I/my friends live. Leaving London does cross my mind every now and then but there's no obvious place for me to move to, and the unlimited options does act as a deterrent as requires too much thought!

Thanks, gawdalmighty.  Been meaning to write something on this thread for a while.
Report stu October 14, 2014 7:22 PM BST
In theory, much better for previously mug punters to try and become successful these days - no threat of PC lurking if you've lost in your history of betting. Of course, you'd have to change and become a winning player, easier said than done.
Report stu October 14, 2014 7:23 PM BST
I personally believe going 'full time' on BF is not the best solution - better to have some form of income (preferably home work or part time) and supplement it with BF/betting/trading money.
Report Wesdag October 14, 2014 8:40 PM BST
stu    Joined: 12 Jan 02
Replies: 8415 14 Oct 14 19:22 
In theory, much better for previously mug punters to try and become successful these days - no threat of PC lurking if you've lost in your history of betting. Of course, you'd have to change and become a winning player, easier said than done.


PC will catch the losers who turn things around eventually won't it?
Report smithy91 October 14, 2014 9:20 PM BST
stu-I personally believe going 'full time' on BF is not the best solution - better to have some form of income (preferably home work or part time) and supplement it with BF/betting/trading money.

Cool
Report aye robot October 14, 2014 9:42 PM BST
Funny - I'm also mid thirties, single, live in London (as I have done for 15 years).

I do a lot of sport and I have another occupation, not really a job, more of a love.

I don't tell my friends much about what I do on here - many of them don't know at all. I never tell anyone the amounts of money involved, normal people would find it shocking.

I love doing this. It's so much fun to live off your wits beating a system that shouldn't be beatable.

There are no downsides for me. I'm happy working on my own and I can do whatever hours suit me. Over the years I've scaled up and up very steadily so I've never been stressed by the losses when they happen.
Report the man October 14, 2014 11:25 PM BST
PC will catch the losers who turn things around eventually won't it?

Not every big winner pays PC. There seems to be an assumption that if you win big you pay PC, its the rate of winning and how much commission you've paid Betfair that determines if PC is payable.
Report Darlo Bantam October 14, 2014 11:41 PM BST

Oct 14, 2014 -- 7:23PM, stu wrote:


I personally believe going 'full time' on BF is not the best solution - better to have some form of income (preferably home work or part time) and supplement it with BF/betting/trading money.


I agree. Since having my first bet about two weeks before leaving University, I was always interested in sports gambling, mostly football. But after a while of getting tetchy when I lost, I decided to pack it in. I hadn't touched my Betfair account in perhaps three or four years, and basically went full-time overnight when I left my previous job. I made plenty of mistakes, and lost too much, but eventually I was turning things round. However, I think the biggest key was when I took on a new part-time job, and it took away so much stress of trading. I personally think the biggest asset to winning/losing/not losing is your psychology and so taking away that stress for me was a massive step.

Report stu October 15, 2014 1:38 PM BST
I think the biggest key was when I took on a new part-time job, and it took away so much stress of trading.

Totally empathise with that myself. I currently have both a steady income and betting plan and try to work both together. Never worked better for me in the past when I had just betting, or trying to work full time and bet.
Report Wesdag October 15, 2014 5:03 PM BST
the man    Joined: 10 Sep 00
Replies: 439 14 Oct 14 23:25 
PC will catch the losers who turn things around eventually won't it?

Not every big winner pays PC. There seems to be an assumption that if you win big you pay PC, its the rate of winning and how much commission you've paid Betfair that determines if PC is payable.


Hmm?

So who's in profit and pays more than 20% in total commission (considering the top rate is only 5%)?
Report Wesdag October 15, 2014 5:04 PM BST
*total commission and charges
Report stu October 15, 2014 7:30 PM BST
Yeh, guess you're right it would catch up eventually with losers who turn it around - but at least it could take a while and provide a cushion.
Report Wesdag October 15, 2014 7:35 PM BST
And there was me thinking someone had discovered a loophole. Plain
Report stu October 15, 2014 7:45 PM BST
Laugh
Report Mr.Anderson October 15, 2014 9:38 PM BST
Premium Charges

The Premium Charge only applies in respect of bets placed on the Betfair Exchange and it does not apply to any bets placed on other Betfair products.

In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.

Any customer affected by the Premium Charge will be notified in advance.
Calculating Potential Charges

Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** generated over the lifetime of your account. The details of these calculations are explained below.

You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.

The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair is profitable since they joined, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.

While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of lifetime gross profits will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge after they have bet in more than 250 markets.

Each customer will also have a £1,000 allowance against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge incurred.

Please note that for the purposes of calculating the charge we will assume that the charge has been in place since Betfair launched in June 2000. This means that we will consider all customers to have generated charges equal to at least 20%† of lifetime gross profits as of the 12th October 2009. However, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used prior to 12th October 2009 in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

    The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
    The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

This means that you will not be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20%† of your gross profits for the previous week. Please note this figure applies exclusively to the maximum amount of Premium Charge payable. It is possible for the total amount of Premium Charges and commission paid to exceed 20%†.

Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account is less than the same calculation for the previous week.

Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).

Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.

In circumstances where Betfair considers, in its absolute discretion, that multiple accounts have been used by one person or group of persons in order to avoid or reduce liability for the Premium Charge, Betfair shall be entitled to treat those accounts as if they relate to one person for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. In such circumstances Betfair shall link those accounts and the linked accounts shall be jointly and severally liable for any unpaid Premium Charge. The Premium Charge will be debited from any such account(s) where applicable.

*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.

**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes half the commission paid on winnings, but also half the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:

    Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
    where
    Implied Commission = market losses x 3%
    We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.

Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:

    Your account is in profit;
    Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
    You bet in more than 250 markets.

Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:

    Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
    Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

    The difference between 20%† of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
    The difference between 20%† of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

Examples

    Example 1
    You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 800 markets.
    You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated.
    You have not been charged any Premium Charges to date although you have fully used up your allowance of £1,000.
    During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80.
    You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) - £80 = £20).

    Example 2 - Charge Allowance
    You have won gross profits of £10,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 320 markets.
    You have generated £1,050 in commission and paid no Premium Charge to date.
    During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50.
    In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) - £50 = £50).
    However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid.
    You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.

    Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
    You have won gross profits of £8,000 since joining Betfair having bet in 500 markets.
    You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
    During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125.
    As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits since joining Betfair, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge.
    However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
    After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.

†Premium Charges at higher rates

Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:

    Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
    Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
    Bet in more than 1,000 markets

The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:
Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio     Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5%     60%
5% - 10%     50%
10%+     40%

Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.

If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.

The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.

For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the “Calculating Potential Charges” section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.

It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ‘overpaid’ when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks’ notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.

***By ‘net profits’ we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited.


HTH Laugh
Report stu October 15, 2014 10:07 PM BST
sorry can you repeat that. Plain
Report the man October 16, 2014 11:34 AM BST
Hmm?

So who's in profit and pays more than 20% in total commission (considering the top rate is only 5%)?


Top rate commission is 5% per individual bet, the PC is interested in overall % commission paid

I may well be in the minority but I've won £2.8 million (not as much as it sounds as its over 12 years and I'm in a team of 4, which works out about 60k a year each)and I'm no-where near paying PC
Report Westender October 16, 2014 11:49 AM BST
You will need to post a screen shot of the premium charge portaloo for people to believe on here mate  Laugh
Report YOMOMMA October 16, 2014 12:01 PM BST
I won £1.5 million last fiscal year and I don't pay PC either.
Report Westender October 16, 2014 12:14 PM BST
The problem on here is that Money Tree also won enough to buy Chelsea FC
Report HonkyJoe October 16, 2014 12:47 PM BST
Well obviously there are ways of avoiding PC. Presumably you have to complement your normal winning bets with lots of churn. The churn won't in itself make you much (if any) money, but it will mean that your overall commission rate rises and rises.    Isn't that roughly the idea?  (It's clearly not quite as simple as that, as you need to find good churning methods that don't lose you money. But hey, that's what bots are for....)
Report the man October 16, 2014 1:17 PM BST
More or less what I do Honky Joe except that everything I do is a churn, with a very small % edge overall. Turnover this year so far is roughly £10.9 million with profit £165K
Report the man October 16, 2014 1:24 PM BST
So if I've won roughly £5.5 million at 2% commission I've paid £110K. About 62%, not low enough for premium charge
Report the man October 16, 2014 1:25 PM BST
sorry 66%
Report Wesdag October 16, 2014 2:02 PM BST
Hmmm Confused
Report Total Bosman October 16, 2014 2:02 PM BST
The man - I'd be wary about how much info you post on here, tbh.  Especially as regards the team you're working in.
Report ilikewavingatbuses October 16, 2014 4:00 PM BST
where you living these days The man?
Report ilikewavingatbuses October 16, 2014 4:00 PM BST
.......full address please!
Report Westender October 16, 2014 5:21 PM BST
Betfair's crack Premium Charge Avoidance Team running the sniffing software as we type.

Thought somebody was winding me up until I read an article in the press about this Betfair Premium Charge Avoidance team.

Where did it all go wrong - when they moved from a simple 5% commission to a telephone book of charges. Laugh
Report Still standing October 17, 2014 4:49 AM BST
So TheMan has paid 110 grand in commission.  Let's assume this stays the same or even goes up the next few years.  Why would BF put a premium charge on that golden goose ?  Why scare away BF's sure yearly profit ?  Sure they'll get a one time extra premium charge, but TheMan will say eff that and find somewhere else to go, just like most of the other big winners. Surely Betfair must have some people on staff who have taken some economics and accounting courses who would say to the company big shots "Hey guys, WTF are we doing"
Report Still standing October 17, 2014 4:49 AM BST
So TheMan has paid 110 grand in commission.  Let's assume this stays the same or even goes up the next few years.  Why would BF put a premium charge on that golden goose ?  Why scare away BF's sure yearly profit ?  Sure they'll get a one time extra premium charge, but TheMan will say eff that and find somewhere else to go, just like most of the other big winners. Surely Betfair must have some people on staff who have taken some economics and accounting courses who would say to the company big shots "Hey guys, WTF are we doing"
Report puertabanus October 19, 2014 5:29 PM BST
So you are purely trading on betfair and that works?, paying normal commission (minus discount) and premium charge? I´ve been gambling professionally for years and only use betfair through an agency account when needed, all the same, even the 2% commission is enough!
Report Do wah Diddy October 19, 2014 6:06 PM BST
YOUVE MORE CHANCE OF STRIKING OIL THAN FINDING  SOMEONE WHO MAKES A REGULAR PROFIT ON HERE
Report Do wah Diddy October 19, 2014 6:11 PM BST
YOU MEET PEOPLE IN YOUR LIFE AND YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING THEY SAY ONLY FOR THEM TO LET YOU DOWN LIKE JIMMY SAVILLE AND RUPERT MURDOCH,AND THE MAN WHO RAN AWAY WITH ALL THE HOUSEWIFES CHRISTMAS HAMPER MONEY ,BE VERY CAREFULL WHO YOU TAKE NOTICE OF
Report catfloppo October 22, 2014 1:08 PM BST
The PC formula was devised to get more money, a reasonable percentage of profit, from people who were only paying a very small percentage of their profit.  People who already pay a reasonable percentage of their profit in commission do not get affected by the PC even though their winnings may be substantial.

I can't believe that people still don't get this, how long has it been in place now?
Report Gin October 22, 2014 2:29 PM BST
and thats the nub of the problem cat - If there are people who have been on here a long time that still don't get how it works then its not hard to see how newcomers might be put off with the thought that if they ever start winning then they will be panned with PC charges.
Report catfloppo October 22, 2014 9:59 PM BST
Good point, gin.  So it's a double whammy for those still complaining, not only are they paying pc but they are also putting off their potential customers!
Report Darlo Bantam October 22, 2014 11:20 PM BST
It would help if Betfair were totally up front and transparent about premium charges. But they're simply not.

* Nowhere can you find any mention of premium charge on the "my account" section of the website
* You have to hunt for details of Premium charges in the rules/help section
* When you do find the help, the wording is ridiculously complicated
* Your PC statement can be found on a link you have to hunt for on the forum or via google, and has a separate address than any other Betfair address
* The PC is just a jumble of numbers which you can't breakdown or delve into further.

I'm not totally averse to PC, but I think the way it's done leaves an awful lot to be desired.
Report Coachbuster October 23, 2014 2:01 PM BST
agree darlo - i think the way it has been handled and implemented leaves a worst taste than the charge itself .

the lack of a refund on losing weeks hacks me off more than anything -  theft !
Report PLEASE TELL THE TRUTH October 23, 2014 7:14 PM BST
Yes, but we still keep paying p/c, but the landscape has changed quite significantly in the last year or so, the reality is, you now have very good alternatives. Betfair is now a sports book operator that runs an exchange Crazy
Report carvoeiro October 23, 2014 9:54 PM BST
The last few points a very relevant.
Surely MOST people on here won't EVER pay the PC.
Most would be "in real terms"  happy (?) to be in the situation of paying  the PC, but then not liking if they actually had to.

It is about perception and the way it is handled by BF.

Hello Coach, not spoken in a while, we had a chat a couple of years ago about how many high scoring games Villareal appear to be involved in. Again tonight,although I didn't get involved, went 3-0/3-1/AU (in running) on Spurs .Hope all is well with you.
Report Coachbuster October 24, 2014 1:06 AM BST
Ahh - hello mate -  i think you took part in the music  quizzes around '09 time as well  Happy

I  had a few small bets on the Spurs game as it goes   - things appear picking up now after a dreadful few weeks,have you noticed the markets slightly busier of late ,or is it just me thinking that ?   - glad to see you're surviving ,not too many of the old names about .
Report KIMBLE October 24, 2014 5:20 AM BST
back to a previous point, what do the FT say their job is if asked in a social situation. im fed up trying to explain this and need a reasonable (and believable) job title so that when this happens they just go 'oh, ok, good' and not 'Bull no one can do that, ur gonna go broke"

i mean if u said u were FT on ebay, its the same thing, trading!
Report no moves October 24, 2014 9:56 AM BST
"The last few points a very relevant.
Surely MOST people on here won't EVER pay the PC.
Most would be "in real terms"  happy (?) to be in the situation of paying  the PC, but then not liking if they actually had to.

It is about perception and the way it is handled by BF."



Only a very select band on here will ever make a sustained profit but if the exchange deducts the winnings from any successful player then Betfair  will have removed the incentive to bet, not just for the people who are paying this tax at present but for everybody who aspires whoever unrealistically to be successful, which may may well be all of us.
Report Wesdag October 24, 2014 1:33 PM BST
Kimble,

I usually say I'm a trader or day trader that specialises in sports, just like the stock market or forex.
Report PLEASE TELL THE TRUTH October 24, 2014 2:34 PM BST
If you are new to trading then betfair is the best place to come as it is by far the best trading platform out there. Thereafter if you trade or bet to win, which should be the case, then there is zero retention, in that no real long term customer loyalty programme other than the betfair commission decay holiday, which is meaningless.

So you have now been trading for a few months and making a small profit, then you are contacted saying you have to pay 20% tax on your winnings on a weekly basis, but if you lose then no rebate. As a consequence you leave and thank betfair for the training and trade elsewhere at around 5% on wining bets only.

P/C payers, i would certainly say is being paid by long term existing customers, who in the main trade of quick pictures. So betfair for a living if you are starting out then probably not Happy
Report catfloppo October 24, 2014 8:51 PM BST
No moves, not all winning strategies qualify for pc
Report catfloppo October 24, 2014 8:54 PM BST
I say professional gambler and then usually end up explaining how it's not really what they think!
Report KIMBLE October 25, 2014 12:52 AM BST
risk management seems more apt in my case
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