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11 Jul 18 21:04
Date Joined: 10 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 28,940 | Blogger: mesmerised's blog
Not including Jack Wilshere and Shelvey.

Two creative midfield players, and would have made a difference tonight when England were completely bereft of ideas and made sideways and backwards pass after sidewards and backwards passes.

He just didn't want their type as characters, both a bit too Jack the lad for him, he wanted nice, obedient players in the squad.

If that's the 'DNA' then England haven't got the genes to succeed under him.

Lost to the first half decent team we played.

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Report Crisp77 July 11, 2018 10:05 PM BST
I would have said not matching the waistcoat with a nice gold fob watch.
Report MJK July 11, 2018 10:09 PM BST
Perhaps it was not having a calculator on hand to count how many subs he'd used..
Report Johnny_Mustang July 11, 2018 10:09 PM BST
Or a decent cravat at the very least.
Report Hamsterdam July 11, 2018 10:11 PM BST
Taking Sterling off for that Rashford mug
Report BonnieDday July 11, 2018 10:13 PM BST
Well, it didn't take long for someone with a Masters degree in hindsight to put forward a decisive blow for after timing.

I assume we would have heard nothing in favour of the indisciplined under achievers Wilshere and Shelvey had England won the tournament.

I'm mesmerised, Mesmerised, that you couldn't find it in yourself to offer one word of credit for the achievement of reaching the last 4. You say that it was Southgate's "biggest" mistake. You don't say "only" mistake or "bigger" mistake (comparative, of two). What were the other two mistakes (at least) you claim he made?
Report eyeball July 11, 2018 10:15 PM BST
Had to bring a creative midfielder and didn't . Decided to play villas boas sideways football and rely on crosses and set pieces . Did better than I expected with the style he wanted to play .
Report mesmerised July 11, 2018 10:15 PM BST
I said that before the tournament and the whole way through the tournament as any poster in here will tell you, every match thread I said get Wilshere on.

So f all to do with hindsight.
Report NBK July 11, 2018 10:15 PM BST
people who say nothing in bf history are the ones to take most notice of imo
Report PorcupineorPineapple July 11, 2018 10:16 PM BST
Sterling was the best player on the park. Rashford is maximum bottom half of the PL level. Kane couldn't run.

Just a terrible substitution all round.
Report mesmerised July 11, 2018 10:17 PM BST
in fact  made a pre World Cup thread about his exclusion from the the squad, it was ridiculous to think you could wn a World Cup with Henderson - Dier - Alli - Loftus Cheek in the centre, you needed real creativity.
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip July 11, 2018 10:18 PM BST
Surely his biggest mistake at the world cup was missing a penalty in a semi final
Report Cork Langer July 11, 2018 10:19 PM BST
Was that not a Euro semi...?
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip July 11, 2018 10:19 PM BST
Report Ibrahima Sonko July 11, 2018 10:22 PM BST
No, it was bringing on the no position player in Rashford.

Most talented player i have ever seen to not know where he plays, the mourinho effect.
Report BonnieDday July 11, 2018 10:22 PM BST
I'm as disappointed as everyone else, Mesmerised. However, if as you say you were consistent in your comments about Wilshere and Shelvey, both of whom have a short fuse which I believe other teams could and would have exploited, then I withdraw my comment about after timing.

Still interested to hear what you meant by "biggest mistake". I cannot think of another manager who could have taken England this far and so galvanised the team and country.

Go on ... a tiny bit of credit for the Waistcoat Wonder?
Report Ibrahima Sonko July 11, 2018 10:25 PM BST
Bonnie, Gareth did little wrong.

Dont trust MMesmerised, he is a master fisherman.
Report Solano1 July 11, 2018 10:27 PM BST
Did the Walker experiment work?
Yes, it let Trippier in, who was possibly the best player.
But, he was found wanting twice for me tonight.

Lascelles would have been the better call.
Report mesmerised July 11, 2018 10:28 PM BST
Alli has a short fuse, he was on his best behaviour, it wouldn't have been an issue.

England's route to the semi's was soft, were qualifies via the groups after 2 game v 2 poor teams, scrapped past the team that finished 5th in South America qualies on penalties, beat a very poor Sweden team and lost to the Croats who must have been or should have been more tires than England.

I'll sum this up for you.


Jesus Wept, 4 and half years til the next one.
Report Crisp77 July 11, 2018 10:32 PM BST
Jack Grealish with be in for the Euros
Report BonnieDday July 11, 2018 10:35 PM BST
Thanks for the heads up, Ibrahima Sonko.

Oh well, Mesmerised, they think it's all over for this time round and it is.

I suggest you get posting on the rugby forum as I'm sure everyone including Eddie Jones will be interested in your recommendations for next year's World Cup.
Report Ibrahima Sonko July 11, 2018 10:39 PM BST
Sol, you are being over critical, Is the walker experiment a failure ?

i dont know, but this England team played differently with 2 pacey full backs with a mostly right back as cover.

I totally understand the trippier defending was suspect.
Report mesmerised July 11, 2018 10:39 PM BST
I was right all along Bonnie, that's the long and short of it.

Couldn't give a monkeys about Rugby. Had no idea the World Cup was next year either.
Report sickoflayinwinners July 11, 2018 10:40 PM BST
crisp, even though he was playing for villa in the championship id have undoubtedly taken him, as you say he will make the euros.overall we did ok but no more than that.
Report Try My Best July 11, 2018 10:41 PM BST
Created **** all in open play through the tournament. Beat the the titans of football sweden colombia tunisia and panama and beaten by two half decent sides. Nothing there to treat them as heroes. Pretty average and when push came to shove simply not good enough. Just the usual. Went this far coz of draw not coz they are a good side.
Report Ibrahima Sonko July 11, 2018 10:43 PM BST
Still did well to reach a semi imo
Report Try My Best July 11, 2018 10:48 PM BST
I simply don't know where all this positivity is coming from. Good first half performance and then we put up the white flag. Deserved to get beat by an ordinary side. Manager has never won anything and never will.
Report mesmerised July 11, 2018 10:50 PM BST
Got Middlesbrough relegated.
Report detraveller July 11, 2018 10:56 PM BST
@TryMyBest Are you ill or drunk? Never seen you write so respectfully about England on the cricket forum. Or are you on your best behaviour for the world cup? Happy
Report Try My Best July 11, 2018 10:57 PM BST
I think we have been ok but no world beaters. Cant see any great improvement at all.Croatians have the pick from 4 million people ffs. We have the best facilities all the money and an average premier league. No surprise too me that we are out. Can't pass the ball 10 yards to each other
Report GoldCupWinner July 11, 2018 11:09 PM BST
We did struggle to pass the ball ten yards to each other, which is why I think it's important Southgate and all levels from grass roots up to continue to play in this manner to eventually get our players to be able to string passes together. We played well first half but were awful afterwards.
Report TheBetterBettor July 11, 2018 11:13 PM BST
We were expecting Winston Churchill in the dressing room at halftime...but all we got was private pike from dads army.

Report Racingqueen July 11, 2018 11:14 PM BST
They did amazing given they had zero midfield passers.they werecrhing out for shelves and lascelles would have been far better than the liability that is Kyle Walker.
Report Racingqueen July 11, 2018 11:14 PM BST
Crying out for shelvey
Report going skint July 11, 2018 11:20 PM BST
playing injured players never works
tried it with wayne, beckham etc
if theyre lame feck em off
Report bankit July 11, 2018 11:58 PM BST
The guy gave his all, Came up short no harm in that. if anyone is to blame it's the f.a for giving him job, it suited them to give him job cos they didn't want to be embarrassed again, he lacked top level experience, a world class manager may have guided England through to final.. days nt think big Sam World have fared any better Probably worse
Report Fashion Fever July 12, 2018 12:00 AM BST
maxed out a poor team, from a dream draw nearly pulled if off
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 12:05 AM BST
We hired a yes man, we got a yes man result, a loss against the first decent team we played.
Report Captain carnage July 12, 2018 12:08 AM BST
He did fairly well with a young squad who had the dream of all dream routes through.

He generated a spirit and unity rarely seen at International level. He should get credit for that.

Central midfield is a an obvious weakness. Henderson looks a decent holder who can spray the ball forward
against modest opposition. But, put him in against champions league class players and he losses confidence,
doesn't track properly, misses headers, is scared to pass forward and the whole set up of team is then a problem.

The problem is Shelvey and Wilshire are `problems' before they even get on the plane. Shelvey's defensive weakness and indiscipline
on the pitch will surely rule him out of ever appearing for England. Wilshire refuses to commit himself to the sport and lost his place
in a Bournemouth team.
Report RozelKid July 12, 2018 12:27 AM BST
Im convinced that if Southgate played Loftus-Cheek instead  of Dier or Henderson then England would be in the Final - Southgate was playing a 3-1-4-2  where Henderson or Dier were in the side to sit just in front of the defence when that clearly wasn't needed - where he should have played a 3-5-2 instead of having that defensive midfielder role -  and give that position to a forward running attacking midfielder like Cheek.

I would have played Cheek at half time at least - with his sole instruction to just run at them straight down the middle at any given opportunity to open up the space for Kane , Rashford, or Sterling.....because he is strong enough to do so.

What a trick they have missed tonight - im fcukin fuming as they should have got to a Final.

Southgate is a defensive Mug
Report Try My Best July 12, 2018 12:33 AM BST
Report Steamship July 12, 2018 12:38 AM BST
Had a dream draw and did well. We were the better team in the first half and should have been 2 up. I could see we were struggling 5 min into 2nd half and that is when he should have changed things, but they have had a good run and given the fans a good time.

Let's hope we can build on this for the Euro's in 2 years time.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 1:52 AM BST
Loftus-Cheek was awful when he did play this tournament.
Report TheBetterBettor July 12, 2018 2:23 AM BST
Rooney experience may have just been the final piece to take us over the finishing line...and the fact of him not being in multiply tournaments with everton wouldnt hinder his energy levels in the latter stages of the competition
Report RozelKid July 12, 2018 2:31 AM BST

Jul 11, 2018 -- 7:52PM, n88uk wrote:

Loftus-Cheek was awful when he did play this tournament.

I dont agree - looks exciting in his games- but should have been played in a particular way ...which would have opened things up for Kane, Sterling, and Rashford

Report sofaking July 12, 2018 3:36 AM BST
Southgate did amazingly well to get this bunch to the semi finals.  Wilshere hasn't done anything in the last few years to be worthy of a spot in the squad and I certainly don't believe that Shelvey would've made a difference.  It's crazy how delusional some people are- they were looking past Croatia and thinking about the final on Sunday v France.
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 7:37 AM BST
9 of the 11 players were Champions League players, 5 were league title winners, they were not a bunch of players gathered together from one of Sunday leagues over Regents Park, amazingly well to get to a semi and lose to a team of a similar level - lol.

We were favourites for every meaningful game - every game, so this whole we outperformed is bollox, outperforming would have been beating France who would have been fas to win.

It is a failure and it's amusing people dress it up as anything else.
Report Outpost July 12, 2018 10:02 AM BST
southgate did nothing - he got lucky coming out of the easiest group while bigger teams were getting funny results.

this meant that england practically had a bye to the final in terms of opposition.

as it was, england only managed to beat sweden, so I would think that whoever was in charge could have done that.

who knows, maybe a proper manager would have been able to beat croatia and get to the final.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:17 AM BST
Loftus-Cheek was absolutely woeful vs Colombia which was why he got subbed, and didn't even look good vs Panama where he kept giving the ball away, so don't know why people think he'd be the difference.
Report Captain carnage July 12, 2018 10:20 AM BST
Some of the comments on this thread suggest if there not supposed to be ironic then the posters have mentl health problems.

The worst is the suggestion Cheek should have replaced Henderson and then gone on maurauding runs through the middle.

Could you imagine the hapless Stones and Walker having to cope with about 5 attackers whilst the whole midfield had gone AWOL.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:20 AM BST
This run just shows you the power of making a SF run. Like in 1990 where we had a nice draw, again next time we make the semi's was with another nice draw. We still haven't actually beaten a top team in KO football since 1966.

Southgate did however kind of engineer his own run which many England managers of the past wouldn't, so deserves credit for coming a bit more street wise than managers of the past.
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 10:22 AM BST
you still peddling that nonsense n88 Laugh
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:24 AM BST
It's the truth, we wouldn't have made the SF's in other side.
Report TheBetterBettor July 12, 2018 10:34 AM BST
if croatia do go on to win it...I russia and england will be kicking themselves
Report DIE LINKE July 12, 2018 10:41 AM BST
Southgate's biggest mistake was not learning from the extra-time v Colombia, exactly the same happened last night with the midfield going AWOL.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:47 AM BST
Well doesn't help England's midfield is bang average. Can only work with what you've got and and England have got great midfielders.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:49 AM BST
I guess there I'd say that's the issue with the 3 at the back system, the weakness to 3 at the back is when come up against good midfields you are asking to get overrun in the middle of the park as you have 3 CB's, 2 WB's will convert to full backs and not enough numbers in the middle of the park. Especially when the 3 midfielders have also got to pick up the 2 full backs from the opposition making runs, leave them to cover a huge amount of ground.
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 10:55 AM BST
By tanking the match against Belgium, Southgate unwittingly, sent out a subliminal message to his players which said they he didn't think they were quite good enough to beat the tops teams, that would have hurt their confidence.

If England had of topped the group, they would have beaten Japan and just like Belgium, they would have been underdogs against Brazil but could have been Brazil who were vastly overrated, drew with Switzerland, didn't score v Costa Rica til the 90th minute and struggled against Serbia.

So as it panned out, England and Belgium depart the tournament at the same stage, the difference being, Belgium leave with more credit in the bank and went out on their sword, England limped out looking clueless in the softer semi final.

Being streetwise is showing your players you believe in them, half the battle. What happened in actuality is, Southgate pussied out of facing the best teams and that transmitted to the players.
Report leazes67 July 12, 2018 10:59 AM BST
Set piece goals will only get you so far at this level.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 10:59 AM BST
Utter rubbish. There's no evidence to support that, given England haven't beaten anyone of Brazil's level since 1966, have never looked like beating anyone of that level in 2018 so there's no reason to believe we would have here.
Report TheBetterBettor July 12, 2018 11:02 AM BST
Belgium were 2-0 down in the 55 minute....would you have taken that for credibility
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 11:13 AM BST
You can't use results from a bygone era as being meaningful in the present moment ffsLaugh

Brazil were overrated and proved to be so the whole way through the tournament. England were more than capable of beating them. Dem the facts.
Report n88uk July 12, 2018 11:19 AM BST
They were still a significantly better team than England.
Report anxious July 12, 2018 11:19 AM BST
Yep Southgate done well but made a massive error not changing it early in the second half , ali should have been off for loftus -cheek  or deplh , and rose on for young , we were overun in the second half
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 11:25 AM BST
Brazil were not significantly better than England.
Report gibmark July 12, 2018 11:45 AM BST

Jul 12, 2018 -- 5:19AM, anxious wrote:

Yep Southgate done well but made a massive error not changing it early in the second half , ali should have been off for loftus -cheek

Report gibmark July 12, 2018 11:47 AM BST
it wasnt all about England , Croatia  do have some talented players
Report FOYLESWAR July 12, 2018 11:53 AM BST
mess its over now ! history , dont look back in anger ,look forward ,the domestic stuff starts soon ................
Report sixtwosix July 12, 2018 12:48 PM BST
Not his rather Kane and Lingard not putting the game to bed in the first half, they would have been mentailly dead at 2 nil down.
Report Wesdag July 12, 2018 2:40 PM BST
Is this the same Wheelchair who made phuck all difference against the mighty Iceland?
Report Racingqueen July 12, 2018 2:56 PM BST
South gate was interviewed last week and mentioned how when the squad was brought on an army course, they had no mobile phone signal and he thought they wouldn't last the week.

Capella also had issues with players moaning about boredom and stated England have a losers attitude. Imagine you are at a World Cup and whinge about not being able to tweet. Jesus wept....

Kyle Walker who whenever interviewed comes across as the most stupid example of a thick footballer I have ever seen was moaning in press conferences about how the media should have hid the Holland leaked teamsheet incident. You have to thick he thinks the media should be on England's side
Report DirkDiggler July 12, 2018 2:57 PM BST
Is this the same Wheelchair who made phuck all difference against the mighty Iceland?

Yeah that's him, scorer of a mighty 10 goals during his entire career...
Report treetop July 12, 2018 3:00 PM BST
My only criticism is making Kane captain seemed to mean he felt he had to play too far back to lead by example instead of spending more time in the opposition penalty area where he is best.
Report DirkDiggler July 12, 2018 3:05 PM BST
That's more a function of Southgate being unable to change anything, maybe he'll have learned that tactics etc have to be changed at times. Obviously he's got a Sterling blindspot which he'll need to be cured of.
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 3:16 PM BST
I'm surprised Wes is so harsh on Jack, he would have seen him play more than most, surely you can see that if he was 100% fully fit for a whole season, he'd be a huge asset for England, who is in the middle of the park that any creativity close to what he can produce, I cannae think of anyone. Alli was terrible all tournament.
Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 3:17 PM BST
btw Jack was half fit against Iceland and shouldn't have been at the tournament, this time round it was different, he had proved his fitness going into the World Cup.

And every play v Iceland bad Rashford's cameo role, was a bit s***.
Report Wesdag July 12, 2018 3:44 PM BST
Wheelchair has finally found his level at West Ham.

Says it all.
Report TheBetterBettor July 12, 2018 3:53 PM BST
Looks like the fa have tried their one trick pony of putting a young former team member in charge..a la chris coleman for wales.  He took wales to the last four of a tournament as well....

Next up, A.I. bot fed by football forums expertise and experience in theses matters...

It's coming home chaps
Report antony_27 July 12, 2018 4:07 PM BST
No wait listen, its all under control if we finish 2nd in the group then we get the easy route through to the final....oh hang on a minute, what was plan B again?
Report kincsem July 12, 2018 4:33 PM BST
Similarities between Modric and Wilshere
(1) they are the same height
Report sofaking July 12, 2018 6:30 PM BST

Jul 12, 2018 -- 9:17AM, mesmerised wrote:

btw Jack was half fit against Iceland and shouldn't have been at the tournament, this time round it was different, he had proved his fitness going into the World Cup.And every play v Iceland bad Rashford's cameo role, was a bit s***.

Therein lies the problem.  He's rarely fully fit and it would've been a risk to take him.  I don't think he's done anything recent to warrant a place in the squad.  He's still living off the glory of a decent performance in a loss versus Barcelona ten years ago.  If Wilshere is the answer then what is the question?

Report mesmerised July 12, 2018 6:45 PM BST
If Wilshere is the answer then what is the question?

Why can't we create anything in the middle of the pitch to feed the starved of service Harry Kane who's been given f all by Alli and Henderson all tournament and has to make do with set pieces.
Report Wesdag July 12, 2018 6:57 PM BST
Only West Ham seem to think he's the answer.

How odd.
Report skygreenzone July 12, 2018 7:02 PM BST
Subs were always like for like whats the point of putting rashford on for sterling when you can't keep hold of the ball.
Report toilettennisplayer July 12, 2018 7:06 PM BST
Totally agree with OP re taking Wilshere and Shelvey for that bit of creativity we didn't have. At the end of things when we were playing against a decent team who were better than us at keeping the ball and passing, we were left huffing and puffing trying to get it back, and when we did, we hoofed it upfield like an above-average sunday pub league team.

Also, keeping Kane and Alli on during extra time when they were legless, just for penalties. Of course if we had survived till then - and they scored penalties - it would have been a good gamble, but not sure carrying 2 bystanders is a wise move with 30 minutes to play against a good team ....
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