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charwell.
02 Oct 12 22:47
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Date Joined: 28 Sep 04
| Topic/replies: 5,199 | Blogger: charwell.'s blog
As Chris Foy finds himself in charge of a league 2 game for the first time since February 2008 following MUFC criticism of failure to award them a penalty v Spurs & for only having 4 minutes injury time; & Mark Halsey gets 2 PL games following a wideley criticised inept performance in the LFC v MUFC match which strongly favoured the visitors guess who is in charge of the next Man Utd league game? .... http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/news/match-officials-appointments-6-7-october.html

That's right Howard Webb! Interesting isn't it & the following article makes for fascinating debate:




Oliver Stone once said: “Paranoia is having all the facts”. Many of us die hard football fans know exactly what he means.

I've long held the view that something very fishy goes on in English football.

I’m not the most naturally trusting of guys anyways. When it comes to institutions, I'm downright skeptical of them. I have very little respect or trust in governments, police, and media or football institutions. It's not me being paranoid either: week after week, I’m proven correct on my doubts about them (to any Liverpool fan the findings of the Hillsborough report came as absolutely no surprise).

When it comes to football, it's not even lack of trust. It's plain common sense.

In recent years, we've had a huge number of corruption scandals all across Europe. Several of them in Italy, the corrupt referee Hoyser in Germany, Fenerbahce being docked their title in Turkey, Spain's second division scandals, Marseille a while ago in France, Porto in Portugal etc...

Of course, the one league where nothing ever gets proven to be dodgy is in England. The richest and most watched league in the world is, we are told, completely squeaky clean.

Leaving aside the sheer ridiculousness of that statement, ask yourself this: if corruption gets proven all across Europe, how is the most popular league in the world, with the biggest prize monies in football, whose clubs are owned by some of the richest people in the world, run by stakeholders that are the most powerful media moguls in the world, immune from this? With the amounts of money at stake, how has it managed to be so clean for so long?

To dismiss any talks of corruption in the premier league is to fall for 2 of the traits that characterize the English the most: a sheer egocentric belief that they are better than anyone else and their complete faith in the country's institutions. To them, it’s entirely logical that that stuff goes on abroad where institutions are corrupt, but it’s impossible in England. Just like diving is a foreign disease and Uruguay is the epicenter of racism, unlike the multi cultural tolerance of middle England.

I share neither of those traits. By pure logic, when I see corruption in every facet of English life (MP's expenses scandal, banking sector, the war on Iraq, Leveson enquiry, Hillsborough, The Guilford 4, The Birmingham 6 et all...) as well as entire European football, I ask why is it impossible as many deem, for it to be happening in English football too?

I have followed football since 1986. I have seen for years how Manchester United benefits from refereeing decisions. I don’t need an investigation to tell me this: it happens on a near weekly basis to the point where people are so immune to it, they laugh it off.



I have seen the influence Alex Ferguson has on every facet of the English game. When his Darren son got fired as manager of Preston North End, I watched with bemusement as Ferguson immediately recalled his loan players from Deepdale. I then watched in horror as another club in the premier league, managed by Ferguson’s father’s friend Tony Pullis, also recalled their loan players from PNE.

The message was clear: Mess with Mr Ferguson or his children, and you will be punished.

And not just from Mr Ferguson either. By his friends in football.

Recently, ex referee Jeff Winter stated that he once sent Roy Keane off in a match. He was then criticized by Ferguson and not given a Manchester United game to referee for 2 years. He saw that as punishment as he said that “The FA is reticent to give Manchester United games to referees that Ferguson has criticized in the past”.



Read that statement again. Ferguson criticizes referees that give decisions against his club. Most likely, these decisions happen in games Manchester United lose. The FA reacts to the criticism by not assigning said referees in future Manchester United games. Thus, the only referees assigned to United games are ones that Ferguson approves of.

The referees that have given decisions Ferguson deem to be incorrect against United, however, no longer referee their games (usually the most high profile ones). It’s a terrible indictment of sporting impartiality, justice and the way the game is run in England. This form of selective referee assignement led to the Juventus scandal in 2006.

Winter’s comments prompted me to do my own research. I focused on the referees that took charge of United 2 biggest high profile losses in the last decade or so.

Alain Wiley refereed United’s 4-1 loss to Liverpool in 2009. In that game, he gave both United and Liverpool penalties and sent off Nemanja Vidic. All 3 decisions were absolutely correct and Wiley was praised by Sky TV co-commentator Andy Gray for his performance. Not even Ferguson complained.



Later that year, Wiley was given another United game to referee and despite sending off Kieran Richardson of Sunderland, Wiley was lambasted by Ferguson for being “fat and unfit”. The game ended 2-2.

That would be the end of Wiley’s refereeing career. Wiley, it says cryptically on his Wikipedia page, “agreed to retire” at the end of that season. Agreed with whom? No one knows.

Last season, Manchester City romped to a 6-1 win at Old Trafford, inflicting on their rivals their biggest embarrassment under Ferguson. The referee on that day was Mark Clattenburg. He sent Johnny Evans off in the second half for a clear professional foul.

There have been 34 Man United league games since that day. The number of times times Clattenburg has refereed them? Zero. Not a single one.

It seems that the FA, for whatever reason, doesn’t want Clattenburg to referee Man United games anymore. Some of us more paranoid folk may just wonder who’s behind that decision.
The FA has no hesitation to hand United games to Howard Webb though: he’s been the most used referee in 34 United games since the 6-1 defeat to City.

Webb’s history in Man United games are well known and documented. All I have to say on the matter is that more than 18% of the penalties he’s awarded in his ENTIRE premier league refereeing career have gone to Manchester United. Over a 9 year period, that’s a huge percentage.



So in closing, let’s resume what we’ve discovered. We have an ex premier league referee who has openly stated he was not handed a Manchester United game for 2 years after sending off one of their players. We have an FA who, in said referee’s words, don’t hand Manchester United games to referees that the United manager has previously criticized.

We have a referee who took charge of a heavy United defeat and “agreed to retire” a year later after being called unfit by Alex Ferguson. We have another referee who hasn’t been handed a United game to officiate since he reffed a heavy United defeat 34 league games ago.

Meanwhile, the most used official in United games in that time is the man who has handed 18% of his entire career penalty awards to Ferguson’s team.

Factor in the fact that Manchester United CEO is ON THE BOARD OF the English FA, Alex Ferguson is a knight of the realm with political connections that go a lot deeper than football (just read Allistair Campbell’s diaries if you don’t believe me), and the evidence in the Darren Ferguson sacking that clubs that cross Ferguson get punished by his friends, and you have all the tools there for someone more investigative than me to really delve into.

But yet, nothing happens. Year on year, I watch as not a single journalist utters a peep on the subject. I watch as decision after decision goes United’s way and people in the UK, so much better than everyone else and trusting of their institutions remember, brush them off with insouciance.

In Italy, there would have been phone tap investigations a long time ago. In "so much cleaner than everywhere else" England, we’re paranoid.

Why is that?

Well, when you look at who runs the sport in the country, you understand a bit more. Rupert Murdoch’s Sky live off the premier league. So do his other publications like the Sun. The English media’s last priority is going to investigate and damage one of their biggest cash cows.



Imagine the hit to the revenue streams of the media and clubs if corruption is proved in the premier league? The richest league in the world, so carefully and beautifully marketed across the world, would suffer a huge blow. The effects an investigation would have on Manchester United, the cash cow’s biggest cash cow, would also be devastating.

So it’s all swept under the tabled and every refereeing decision shrugged off. “They even themselves out” we’re told by journalists who get banned from United press conferences for asking a question about team selection.

God knows what would happen to them if they investigate United’s behind the scenes dealings.

Maybe, like Preston, they’ll learn that if you cross Man United, all of football will turn their backs on you too…
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Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 12:36 PM BST
sugarfoot,

spot Wink on mate. I think the writer was wrong with those comments because we all know that the game is often changed depending on events and penalties at a certain time etc are very much in that category.
Report Biscuit1979 October 4, 2012 12:38 PM BST
peter the butcher 04 Oct 12 12:13 
I am sorry but your friend's ommission could be for any reason whatsoever. Being scouse wouldn't be the reason but I am only guessing.....






It may well not be the reason, but why would Fergie even ask that question
Report Redrebel5 October 4, 2012 12:42 PM BST
Peter: You might be only guessing just in the same way that Billy is only guessing that Ferguson had a major part to play in his removal. But you'd have to pretty naive to think it's not something that your manager would ever consider doing.
Report Jinkie October 4, 2012 12:43 PM BST
From the BBC a few minutes ago....

The British Horseracing Authority charge three footballers and a jockey over suspicious betting activity on a number of races.

The Ipswich striker Michael Chopra, Nottingham Forest midfielder James Coppinger and former Manchester United midfielder Mark Wilson are charged along with jockey Andrew Heffernan and five other people.



So there are corrupt footballers after all!
Report Ahoy 1982 October 4, 2012 12:44 PM BST
Redrebel5 - if there is any truth at all to that story its shocking.
Report Biscuit1979 October 4, 2012 12:47 PM BST
Chopra can't be very good at fixing races can he? Didn't he admit to losing almost £1m in his lifetime
Report TheBetterBettor October 4, 2012 12:51 PM BST
From wiki

In 2008, Tommy Smith claimed in his autobiography, that on 8 May 1972, Emlyn Hughes told him that he had been speaking to a number of Arsenal players, and they had said that they were "willing to throw a match for £50 a man" in a vital match at Highbury which decided the title. Liverpool failed to win and the title went to Derby County. Smith wrote that he was disgusted with what Hughes said and never spoke to him again after this. Smith maintained that the only witness was Ian Callaghan. However, Smith also stated that he wasn't sure if Hughes was suggesting that they should bribe the Arsenal players, was wanting him to bribe the Arsenal players, or told him this so he would be incriminated. Smith said he never told Shankly because it would have "Broken his heart".[3]
Report TheBetterBettor October 4, 2012 12:53 PM BST
okay, wait till he´s dead have an ITV documentary about it all....so you can a have a history thats happy in your brain....SADDO.
Report donny osmond October 4, 2012 12:54 PM BST
chopra probably layed the winners (passed when he should have shot Love )

coppinger is ex newcastle as well Sad
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 12:55 PM BST
RedRebel,

I just can't imagine SAF ringing the referees association and telling them to curtail the career of a young referee because he was scouse. Remember this was the first leg of a League Cup in which there was no controversy. It makes no sense. More to the point your friend has absolutely nothing to indicate that SAF was involved other than him being asked if he was scouse. Come on...
Report Redrebel5 October 4, 2012 1:10 PM BST
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Football%3A+The+last+man+to+award+a+penalty+against+United+at+Old...-a060276411

More to do with him awarding a penalty (incorrectly it seems) than him being a Scouser.
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 1:10 PM BST
Biscuit,

I presume that SAf asked the linesman if he was from Liverpool because he disagreed with the penalty decision (TV showed the foul was outside the area). He knows that Liverpudlians don't like all things United and would have been flippantly intimating that was the reason he flagged.

Incidentally RedRebel's mate publicly said he didn't for one moment think that SAF had anything to do with him not retaining his position on the North West Counties League.
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 1:12 PM BST
Exactly RedRebel, that is what I meant with my post above.
Report Redrebel5 October 4, 2012 1:42 PM BST
I don't recall Billy ever saying publicly that he didn't blame Ferguson. Even if he did, I can assure you, privately he says differently.
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 1:54 PM BST
"A lot of my colleagues in the area believe I'm the victim of a stitch- up. "Of course I'm not saying Alex Ferguson was involved in what happened to me, but I get the feeling that someone, somewhere, wanted to pay me back." Billy Birch
Report Biscuit1979 October 4, 2012 2:33 PM BST
Starting to wonder if Pete the Butcher is Alex Ferguson's publicist
Report Ahoy 1982 October 4, 2012 2:34 PM BST
Laugh
Report TheBetterBettor October 4, 2012 2:36 PM BST
Food for Thought

AC Milan v Liverpool 2005 CL Final - Line ups

GK 1  Dida
RB 2  Cafu
CB 31  Jaap Stam
CB 13  Alessandro Nesta
LB 3  Paolo Maldini (c)
DM 21  Andrea Pirlo
RM 8  Gennaro Gattuso   112'
LM 20  Clarence Seedorf   86'
AM 22  Kaká
CF 7  Andriy Shevchenko
CF 11  Hernán Crespo   85'

Substitutes:
GK 46  Christian Abbiati
DF 4  Kakha Kaladze
DF 5  Alessandro Costacurta
MF 10  Rui Costa   112'
MF 24  Vikash Dhorasoo
MF 27  Serginho   86'
FW 15  Jon Dahl Tomasson   85'

Manager:
Carlo Ancelotti
   
 
GK 1  Jerzy Dudek
RB 3  Steve Finnan   46'
CB 23  Jamie Carragher  75'
CB 4  Sami Hyypiä
LB 21  Djimi Traoré
DM 14  Xabi Alonso (Spanish)
RM 10  Luis García (Spanish)
CM 8  Steven Gerrard (c)
LM 6  John Arne Riise
SS 7  Harry Kewell   23'
CF 5  Milan Baroš  81'  85'

Substitutes:
GK 20  Scott Carson
DF 17  Josemi (Spanish)
MF 16  Dietmar Hamann   46'
MF 18  Antonio Núñez (Spanish)
MF 25  Igor Bišćan
FW 9  Djibril Cissé   85'
FW 11  Vladimír Šmicer   23'

Manager:
Rafael Benítez (Spanish)

Referee
Manuel González (Spanish)

Assistant referees:
Clemente Plou (Spanish)
Oscar Samaniego (Spanish)
Fourth official:
Arturo Dauden Ibáñez (Spanish)


You cant take Liverpool´s CL seriously....I mean Rafa had the refs in his back pocket...it was like 15 against 11....Milan had no chance.
Report REDUNDANT PUNTER October 4, 2012 2:38 PM BST
maybe hes mickey phelan
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 2:43 PM BST
lol, not at all mate. I just don't like people putting up false "facts" and making stuff up to suit their own agenda.

SAF isn't a particularly warm likeable bloke to non United fans and even to some of his own club's fans. However some of the comments and acts attributed to him on here are just laughable.

I can understand the club allegiance mentality but not sure making stuff up and proclaiming indisputable facts, which actually turn out to be totally untrue, is the answer.
Report CheltenhamRoar October 4, 2012 2:45 PM BST
Dont expect Charwell to come back anytime soon with a reply having been exposed as a deluded bullshítter.
Report Redrebel5 October 4, 2012 2:49 PM BST
'I'm not saying Alex Ferguson was involved in what happened to me'. A bit different to: 'He didn't think for one moment that Fergie was involved'. He chose his words very carefully, because he obviously can't prove anything. But privately, to people he knows, he has his suspicions that getting the boot goes much further than just the people involved with running the NWC league. & in keeping in line with Fergie's notorious vindictive nature, there's nobody who wouldn't be at all surprised if the Glasgow Growler was a key player in his removal from doing something he really enjoyed.
Report peter the butcher October 4, 2012 2:58 PM BST
Maybe he was just a cr@p linesman and not a very good referee? Sounds much better if you ride on the back of the most famous manager. It makes a much better after dinner story doesn't it?

He has nothing that remotely shows any links  to SAF in his decision whatsoever.
Report charwell. October 5, 2012 10:03 AM BST
Peter, apologies if any of those #FACTS# were incorrect, I just copied them from an Arsenal link as Liverpool, City, Arsenal all posting similar things.

The next article is a blog from an LFC fan so is obviously biased, however, food for thought.....

http://diminbeirut.typepad.com/

P.S FWIW my views are that refs don't purposely set out to be biased but in terms of career progression they are loathe to incurr the wrath of Fergie when it can clearly be seen is harms their prospects, hence more 'marginal' calls go Man Utds way.
Report Marching on Together October 5, 2012 10:15 AM BST
Going to be a lot of refs in div 2 this year then when they keep getting beat.
MOT
Report TheBetterBettor October 5, 2012 10:58 AM BST
I blame fergie for Liverpool losing against a diddy euro club Angry. His influence is everywhere
Report peter the butcher October 5, 2012 1:44 PM BST
charwell,

No problems mate I realised you had probably copied and pasted as we all do.

Can't argue with refs being scared or loathe to incur SAF's wrath although it is probably the "smaller" clubs who will suffer with those decisions more than the bigger ones.

Similarly I can't argue that Suarez has got a raw deal on a couple of occasions but he has only himself to blame. Ashley Young will find himself in the same position if he carries on although I know SAF has been pretty blunt with him.
Report themover October 6, 2012 2:30 PM BST
ttt
Report reculver October 8, 2012 3:57 PM BST
This thread needs to be brought back to the top,
Who was the ref on sunday.?
did cisse's header cross the line ?
would RVP had been sent off if he's played for Newcastle?
who was the ref.?
who was the ref?
who was the ref?
Report donny osmond October 8, 2012 4:02 PM BST
the ball didnt cross the line

van persie would have got a second yellow had he played for newcastle, at least

Report DeSSieReborn October 8, 2012 6:31 PM BST
perverse
Report CheltenhamRoar October 8, 2012 6:50 PM BST
You mean like tiote donny?Who got away with a blatent red card?
Report donny osmond October 8, 2012 6:54 PM BST
lol, you man utd fans just cant rest
Report donny osmond October 8, 2012 6:55 PM BST
tiote got booked for taking the ball off a man utd player

even webb was blushing
Report Solano1 October 8, 2012 8:08 PM BST
Charwell knew. Cool

Which, is highly, highly unusual.
Report thelatarps October 8, 2012 8:47 PM BST
Its a very thought provoking topic from the OP
Have to say as an ABU I do wonder if its the chicken and egg syndrome
As in did SAF initiate this ref selection or did he react to what he saw as blatant ref manipulation in top flight english football and just react accordingly in MUFC best interests

Years ago, younger readers will be surprised to learn that a certain team from Liverpool were in a similar situation as MU now. ie Dominating the league often not playing all that well.
Then there was a particular character called George Courtney from spennybrook who seemed to officiate an inordinate number of LFCs matches. Couple of LFC fans I knew referred to him as uncle george
Report Solano1 October 8, 2012 8:49 PM BST
Spennybrook. Laugh
Report A.H HUNTER esq. October 28, 2012 8:15 PM GMT
Never more highlighted than today ,fergie got his strong ref he likes today and last season when he got two pens.   
  Clattenburg will get fergies approval ,no doubt and will not join the list of refs who vanish from Utd matches.



The FA will be confident to give Clattenburg Utd games without fear of dissent from Old trafford  !!!

Wink
Report charwell. October 28, 2012 8:26 PM GMT
Clattenburg gets recalled from the cold and like all those before him who have had 'time away' comes back wearing the obligitory Man Utt shirt.


Very, very incidious as for sure you couldn't make it up!
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 8:58 PM GMT
Forgive me but the original post included the following complaint;


Last season, Manchester City romped to a 6-1 win at Old Trafford, inflicting on their rivals their biggest embarrassment under Ferguson. The referee on that day was Mark Clattenburg. He sent Johnny Evans off in the second half for a clear professional foul.

There have been 34 Man United league games since that day. The number of times times Clattenburg has refereed them? Zero. Not a single one.

It seems that the FA, for whatever reason, doesn’t want Clattenburg to referee Man United games anymore. Some of us more paranoid folk may just wonder who’s behind that decision.



Now that the same man does ref a United game at Stamford Bridge it is the wrong decision???

The ABU's will say Clattenburg is now pandering to United. The United faithful will say SAF was right about Clattenburg's lack of ability.
Most football fans will know he had a stinker of a game with poor decisions for both teams and that could have happened to any referee.
Report A.H HUNTER esq. October 28, 2012 9:06 PM GMT
Think you are rather proving the point ,pete LaughLaugh


   Fergie and OT complain about Clatts when they get a fair and square thrahing,he does not get a UTD game for ages ,then he comes back and does them a favour .
Report louie87 October 28, 2012 9:11 PM GMT
I guess it's just a coincidence Manchester United consistently keep getting the benefit of these poor decisions.  Clattenbergs the guy who didn't even book Rooney when he elbowed James McCarthy in the back of the head a few seasons ago? The only sad thing about today was how utterly predictable it was. United are 7/4 to win the league this season.  After today that's looks a pretty solid investment!
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 9:18 PM GMT
Hunter,

If Clattenburg hadn't reffed another United game the ABU's would moan as in the original post on here

If Chelsea had won all the ABU's would have said "see what happens" with a "proper" ref.

If United won, well we have seen what has happened.

Don't care, we needed the three points and got them. Shame about all this whining from some Chelsea fans because it hides the tremendous performance they put up. Yes they were unlucky with the Hernandez goal as it was offside but you are talking centimeters.

The whining from the Liverpool fans is both understandable and also mystifying.

Its mystifying because they had a mersey derby today but seem more interested in a United game. Its understandable because whining is in some of their fans dna.
Report themover October 28, 2012 9:25 PM GMT
the refs in the Premier League are sub-standard, that is it. Every weekend, in fact I would go as far as saying the majority of matches, consist of poor decisions by the officials. This has been the case for a long time but with the improvement in replays and camera coverage they are just highlighted more nowadays. Before technology in tennis, for example, it would have been inconceivable the amount of errors made by the line officials, at least now they are corrected in order to determine the correct decision. Football is overlooking the importance of correct decisions being made, why I have no idea Tongue Out
Report mexicano October 28, 2012 9:30 PM GMT
centimetres?????????????

and of course you don't care.

i dare say that you don't care either about the widely held perception that utd get far more than a fair crack of the whip from referees, and you'd probably deny that if that was the case that it could be because fergie has bullied officials in the past.

the widely held beliefs about officialdom and man utd is not healthy for the game.

but you probably don't care
Report A.H HUNTER esq. October 28, 2012 9:53 PM GMT
The eveidence is compelling and Mike Riley is in charge of the ref's .


Fergie has been at it for 25 years ,one day he will have his Jimmy Saville moment,all will come out.
Report thebeest October 28, 2012 10:00 PM GMT
fegie will be on match of day later telling every one that does not comment on refs  normal s###
Report charwell. October 28, 2012 10:08 PM GMT
Pete it's crystal clear to anyone bar a manc:

Upset Fergie & get sent to Coventry. When offered an olive branch do not upset Fergie again.

And once again the wilderness does wonders for an officials 'Slur Fergus Vision.'

The whole thing is a complete and utter farce. Game after game Utd go out with 12 men and invariably their MOM wears the black kit. It's sickening quite frankly.
Report pan07 October 28, 2012 10:08 PM GMT
fergie= jimmy saville
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 10:10 PM GMT
When you talk about bullying refs I seem to recall one European ref having to go into hiding and forced to retire after constant whining and bleating from the then Chelsea manager and players but please feel free to ignore those sort of incidents.

Chelsea played well today, don't tarnish that with the small time whining of referees being intimidated by SAF and United. It was played at the Bridge ffs, how many decisions have you got there over the years????

Yes Clattenburg was poor today but what has that got to do with United? We could argue that he should have given us a penalty when Cahill clearly pulled Evans down when were 2-0 up or that Torres should have had red card earlier but that is all part of football.

It might be easier for me to say that after winning but I think you will find that many of us say the same after a loss and just move on to the next game.
Report pan07 October 28, 2012 10:12 PM GMT
honest question where is the spurs v man u ref.
will he b reefing a man u match in the next century.
Report mexicano October 28, 2012 10:17 PM GMT
peter the butcher
Date Joined:     12 Mar 02
Add contact | Send message
28 Oct 12 22:10 Joined: 12 Mar 02 | Topic/replies: 20,842 | Blogger: peter the butcher's blog
When you talk about bullying refs I seem to recall one European ref having to go into hiding and forced to retire after constant whining and bleating from the then Chelsea manager and players but please feel free to ignore those sort of incidents
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

we don't ignore these things.

they are open to debate, we don't deny it out of hand and put it down to sour grapes.

we acknowledge that it happened, and discuss why.

shame fans of other clubs don't adopt a similar approach.
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
charwell,

If other clubs and fans want to use the referees as excuses for United winning matches and trophies, if other fans and clubs feel as if they are not on a level playing field and they are almost resigned to failure then I am delighted. It makes our job of winning matches and trophies that touch easier if our opponents go onto a pitch thinking they are playing 12 men.

If you are full of self doubt then even better. The more whingeing and whining there is can only help United. I wish it had been Howard Webb out there today just to advance the "myth" and bring this forum into meltdown.

Frankly I am amazed that Liverpool fans are on different threads posting about United on the day their own team have played a Merseyside derby. Used to be a big match in days gone by.
Report thebeest October 28, 2012 10:19 PM GMT
no pete is was so called chelsea fans that got to the ref
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 10:21 PM GMT
Ok Mexicano lets discuss what Graham Poll said then;

Graham Poll wrote an article a couple of weeks ago and he said that he sent off a Chelsea player in a match against Spurs. He said it wasn't even a contentious decision so imagine his surprise when he heard that two Chelsea players had made statements of complaint against his use of language against them. He said he was flabbergasted as they were pure lies.

The two players were John Terry and Ashley Cole. They later withdrew their statements.


Go for it, explain how that would have looked or gone down on here had it been Rooney and Rio.
Report mexicano October 28, 2012 10:24 PM GMT
explain what????????????

really clutching at straws here aren't you???

so two chelsea players probably said poll swore at them, then withdrew their statements. big deal.

what on earth has that got to do with this issue?
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 10:25 PM GMT
Here is the article from graham Poll;


"A welcome return to Premier League action and what a game to start with – Spurs v Chelsea at White Hart Lane.

I remember well the last time I refereed this fixture back on November 5, 2006 when I had to send Chelsea’s John Terry off in Tottenham’s 2-1 win – it seemed a straight forward dismissal even though Terry was England captain.

What followed was incredible as Terry, Ashley Cole and other Chelsea players set about trying to tarnish my reputation by inventing stories about what I was supposed to have said to them on the field that day.

Whilst they retracted the statements later it showed the difficulties for modern day referees who all too often feel isolated and unsupported when facing the might of millionaire footballers and mega-rich clubs"

Report mexicano October 28, 2012 10:27 PM GMT
i still don't see what you're getting at.

did these players get sanctioned by the fa for what thet said?

i believe fergie has .
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 10:36 PM GMT
SAF has criticised referees many times but ultimately he does not make the decisions on the pitch to my knowledge.

Yes he has been sanctioned by the FA, No idea whether John Terry and Ashley Cole were sanctioned for the lies they told about Graham Poll or whether he had the class to ignore their stupidity.

Tell me how you think SAF has made Clattenburg give the decisions he gave today.
Report mexicano October 28, 2012 10:55 PM GMT
quite a remarkable last post from the butch there,


the fact that they withdrew the allegations dosen't mean they were lying.perhaps the had the class not to pursue it.

and how can i tell you how i think saf has made clattenberg make those decisions today when i neither said or thought that.

as i said the perception is widely held that saf's bullying of refs has given utd more than a fair crack of the whip.

it's a belief held by most football fans.

some utd fans deny it.

but it aint healthy for the game
Report peter the butcher October 28, 2012 11:21 PM GMT
mex, I don't have any beef with you. We will just agree to disagree.


I am a big United fan but I am also a football fan. The drama of football includes fans arguing and discussing events on the pitch. That is part and parcel of what we have signed up to.


However for fans to continuously blame SAF or United for any decision by a referee on a football pitch is laughable and in case you hadn't noticed that is what this thread is all about. The widely held perception you talk about is because of stupid and wildly inaccurate threads like this one. The initial post was mostly proved to be ridiculously incorrect in its facts never mind somebody's opinion.


I mean we have got Liverpool fans up in arms about the United match today, what is that all about? They had their own derby match today. I watched it and it was a cracking match but they are more interested in our match, lambasting a referee that they had earlier demanded be allowed to ref United matches. You couldn't make it up.


Anyway good luck for the rest of the season.
Report charwell. October 29, 2012 3:05 PM GMT
Peter, doth protest too much.

All season Liverpool have had horrendous decision after horrendous decision which has cost us dear such as a fgame winner dissalowed when he was clearly offside. YEt hours later you have two men sent off v you and win with an offside goal. This goes on week after week with MUFC. Quite frankly the masses are sick to death of the forces at work regarding Fergie the FA & the Refs. We have not had one 'offside goal, or soft sending off v us or a pen that wasn't.' Yet your lot simply get everything, like in the LFC v MUFC game and it is abjectly laughable.

And if  you bothered to read the Liverpool thread we talked only of our match. Comments regarding Man Utds were added to other threads.

P.S Interestingly on quite a few footy forums there was several threads prophesising Clattenburgs capitulation towards MUFC after finally having been brought in from the cold for incurring Fergies wrath when refereeing properly in the City 6-1 derby win. And he is not the 1st ref to ipset Fergie, get castigated/abused and after a suitable period of reflection allowed to handle a MUFC game again only to ensure there could be no doubts about to whom he favours.
Report A.H HUNTER esq. October 29, 2012 6:03 PM GMT
Corruption in English Football

10/28/2012
The Whole World's Watching



It’s amazing how us “paranoids” keep being  managing to predict the future isn’t it?

Today, Manchester United beat Chelsea 3-2 at Stamford Bridge.

Not a single football fan across the world is talking about anything other than Mark Clattenburg’s refereeing performance in that game.

Readers of this blog will not have been surprised by the referee’s performance. They will have known exactly what to expect during that game today and even the most skeptical will surely be scratching their heads.




Clattenburg had gone 38 games without refereeing Manchester United. His previous United game was the 6-1 thrashing by rivals Man City at Old Trafford. He sent Johnny Evans off in a match that Alex Ferguson described as “the most embarrassing defeat of my career”.

For 38 games, Clattenburg was not handed a single United game to referee. Not a single league game, not a single cup game. That stat alone tells us nothing: he’s also gone a while without officiating Arsenal or Liverpool games. His performance today, however, tells us a great deal.

Clattenburg has now become the latest in an ever lengthening line of referees who have officiated a United loss, gone a long time without reffing them, then on their return give game changing decisions to Alex Ferguson’s side.




Like Chris Foy, who took charge of a United defeat and went a year without reffing United in the league. During that time, Foy reffed 2 United cup games, giving them penalties in both and sending off Vincent Kompany in one.

Like Phil Dowd, who reffed a United loss, then gave them a penalty in the next game he took charge of which earned United a draw and their 19th league title.

Like Mike Jones, who after falsely awarding Demba Ba a penalty at Old Trafford, gave United 2 penalties in 2-0 home win against Stoke during his subsequent visit to Old Trafford. The list is neverending.

I’m not going to keep repeating myself, all that info is in my 3 previous articles. Halsey, Atkinson, Wiley, Oliver, Webb… There’s enough there to at least make you think Man United are the world champions of coincidences.

The point is this:

Clattenburg sends a United player off in an embarrassing loss at home, and gets a 38 game absence from United games. Is there anyone out there who believes that after his performance at Stamford Bridge, he’ll go 38 games without taking charge of United again? or take charge of a Chelsea game again and then come back and serve victory on a plate to them at Old Trafford.

Anyone?



  Is it all a coincidence?
Report cob316 October 29, 2012 6:07 PM GMT
There’s enough there to at least make you think Man United are the world champions of coincidences.


Laugh
Report mexicano October 29, 2012 7:06 PM GMT
it could be some time before he refs anyone.
Report mexicano October 29, 2012 7:10 PM GMT
a lot of the "evidence" that's been put forward to support this theory is indeed circumstancial, but having said that the impression that's held by the vast majority of football fans is that united get preferential treatment from refs.

surely it can't be a coincidence that their manager is the biggest bully of officials in the english game, and has got away with stuff in the past that nobody else would.
Report madbob October 29, 2012 7:14 PM GMT
well said ive thought for years fergie was bribing the refs or what evers going on nice piece cherwell
Report dashero October 29, 2012 7:16 PM GMT
FFS have you seen the way he treats a journalist who asks questions "sir" doesn't approve of??? Didn't speak to the BBC for years , and barred another journo for asking about Giggs when his private life was unraveling , how do you think he reacts and uses his influence when a ref crosses him??? It's simple, if you have ambition as a young ref and want to ref the top games , you stay on Fergies good sideDevil
Report A.H HUNTER esq. December 24, 2012 6:22 AM GMT
The criticism of the ref is there for all to see again ,he seems to be moaning about a fictional foul on Van Persie 50/50 in my view, Van Persie leaning in as well,yes he even rants about the odd foul he thinks he should have.

The real message is he does not want Oliver to ref again and if a ref even misses (in his view Laugh) the odd foul against Utd he is seething with anger .

  Over to you FA time to act and that will not mean giving Clattenburg Utd games in the future,remember how well he officiated the last Utd game according to Fergie Wink.
Report mexicano December 24, 2012 11:31 AM GMT
i don't buy in to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. but i do believe he tries to intimidate referees.

yesterdays snide remarks about the ref were merely the latest chapter in his campaign.
Report A.H HUNTER esq. December 24, 2012 5:15 PM GMT
People are missing the point with all the van persie hit him on the head nonsense,that was just very funny and Fergies rant was also funny.

  The main point is Ferguson criticised another ref  who acted fairly,but did not favour his team. The FA are obliged to act,shirley? And giving Clattenburg Utd games shirley is not the answer.
Report peter the butcher December 24, 2012 5:23 PM GMT
Opening post on this thread;

"It seems that the FA, for whatever reason, doesn’t want Clattenburg to referee Man United games anymore. Some of us more paranoid folk may just wonder who’s behind that decision"


And now;

The main point is Ferguson criticised another ref  who acted fairly,but did not favour his team. The FA are obliged to act,shirley? And giving Clattenburg Utd games shirley is not the answer.


Make up yer minds ffs. Its a bit like i'm a Chelsea fan, now I am a City fan, hang on CL win- now I am a Chelsea fan again but reserve the right to change again... Devil
Report peter the butcher December 24, 2012 5:42 PM GMT
That ref yesterday didn't do much wrong to be fair. I thought he even handled the RVP/Williams thing well considering it was a split second thing.

If you asked me to choose a referee for a life or death match I would honestly just say "get the number one ranked referee" whoever he is (now that Elleray has retired Grin)
Report donny osmond December 24, 2012 5:47 PM GMT
Webb no1
Clattenberg no 2

Lol


Don't know where the rankings come from, but hey ho
Report peter the butcher December 24, 2012 5:53 PM GMT
Seriously donny????

Long live SAF, referees please note, you do eventually get rewarded DevilDevilGrin
Report A.H HUNTER esq. May 11, 2013 11:50 PM BST
People ask how have Man Uted won the premier league by such a big points difference with an average team? well they did not have a man sent off when the season was live and never conceded a penalty either,the Chelsea away game summed up the hold Fergie had on ref,s ,ffs he still complains about fouls given against his club from five years ago.  Riley must never allow Uted to have such a grip on refs in the future now Fergie has gone and the FA need to see fair play is upheld.
Report u want some May 12, 2013 12:25 AM BST
I've never seen this thread before. Well written and spot on in my opinion.  Charwell i salute you
Report peter the butcher May 12, 2013 12:53 AM BST
ffs, integrity?????


Report Pandorica May 12, 2013 10:48 AM BST
Not even ironed. Scruffy twe@ts that they are.
Report leazes67 May 12, 2013 12:05 PM BST
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22499361
even harry knows.
Report TheBetterBettor May 12, 2013 12:46 PM BST
Charwell....

You´ve finally convinced me.  Where do you want me to sign the petition, raise the banner or sing a song?
Report A.H HUNTER esq. May 12, 2013 12:59 PM BST
Sir Alex Ferguson: Man Utd boss intimidated referees - Redknapp


QPR manager Harry Redknapp believes officials have been "afraid to upset" Sir Alex Ferguson, as he praised the contribution of the retiring Manchester United boss.
Everton boss David Moyes, 50, will take over on 1 July from the Scot, 71, who announced his retirement on Wednesday.
"A lot of officials would be in awe of him and afraid to upset him," Redknapp told Radio 5 live's Sportsweek.
"There was such an aura about him because he is a winner."
Redknapp added: "I never had any doubts about that. If there was a bit of time to be added they would make sure they got it right because they did not want to upset him.
The truth about "Fergie time"
"When Man Utd were losing, they had an average of four minutes and 37 seconds added time, compared with three minutes and 18 seconds when they were winning"

Fergie time: Does it really exist?
"Especially young referees, and even one or two of the older ones, were a little bit afraid to upset him."
In January 2009, then-Liverpool manager, Rafael Benitez, made similar complaints. He said: "We know what happens every time we go to Old Trafford and the United staff.
"They are always going man to man with the referees, especially at half-time when they walk close to the referees and they are talking and talking."

  Yep even Arry boy knew .
Report Diamond_Joe_Quimby May 12, 2013 1:02 PM BST
Anyone see the cretins intrview in relation to Suarez. He was going on about the length of bans and was ranting about the 9 months Cantona got saying if it was today He wouldn't allow the FA to ban him for that long Crazy

Brilliant manager but Complete c**t like most of the sport today.
Report buzzer December 7, 2013 3:27 PM GMT
They're missing him a little bit.
Report mesmerised March 16, 2014 7:37 PM GMT
He would have never allowed 3 penalties at Old Trafford today.
Report the bloob March 16, 2014 8:05 PM GMT
hard to believe that an away team can get 3 penalties in the same game at OT. In truth they should have had 4, not so long ago there wouldn't be that many given in a decade
Report thelatarps March 16, 2014 8:29 PM GMT
brilliant post by the op
as more and more water passes under the fergus bridge you understand what a whole load of smoke and mirrors the man u/fergus project was
the epl put man utd in a fantastic position finance wise versus their english competition.
Then Wenger came along with his knowledge and connections in europe and threatened to derail everything
Stat today in the paper that wenger suffered 99 red cards, the most of any manager in the epl years
Fergus wasnt even 2nd with less than 50
it shows where the refs sympathies lay

Lets face it, like the all blacks in rugby union, it was good for business when fergus & man utd won
Its only natural I suppose
Jeventus win in Italy, Bayern in Deutsch, Madrid in spain
A bit like the irvine welsh story. A polis arrests a celtic fan and a rangers fan for fighting.
What does he do? Let the hun go and give the tim a doing in the cell
That way everyone goes away with their predujices confirmed.

We can make the most of Man U's down time the now, but sooner or later one of the glazers will work out the form and they will be on top again
Lets hope it takes another 26 years
Report Solano1 March 16, 2014 8:33 PM GMT
Chris Foy would have given all four.

He hates Chelsea.
Report unitedbiscuits March 16, 2014 8:52 PM GMT
Very good thread started by the OP. Time lends weight to the argument.
Report TheBetterBettor March 16, 2014 8:52 PM GMT
LaTarp.

So what, Emlyn Hughes was in the freemasons (source wiki) and willing to pay bribes to arsenal players to win the league.

Thats why Liverpool won everything in the 70's
Report This is for BIG Players only March 16, 2014 9:01 PM GMT
got to laugh at this nonsense, if the FA loved MU so much why did they ban Cantona and Rio for so long? and If Refs loved Fergie so much
why did they find it so hard to give MU a pen when Liverpool and Arsenal had more pens in an era when MU won the league 14 times?!
Report stonecold- March 16, 2014 9:04 PM GMT
Laugh thebetterbettor have a day offGrin
Report thelatarps March 16, 2014 9:15 PM GMT
There nowt particularly wholesome about LFC dominance of the 80s either
A plague on both your houses I say
LFC's dominance came about as a result of a turgid time in english football
It was the era of charles 'long ball' hughes and his FA handbook
LFC ignored it all, stuck to their boot room philosophies while the rest of english football slipped ever further behind europe

As a spurs fan I remember Souness going thru the back of Glenn Hoddle, a horrific tackle which put him out the game for most of the season
About a decade later I remember Bryan 'captain crutches' Robson doing the exact same thing to Sheringham
On neither occasion was the bullying northerner given their due marching orders

Let us not forget that the only time england ever had a decent national team was in a period in which there were 7 different winners of the div 1 title. A proper competition.  West Ham, famously won the world cup but fought off relegation ever year.

So Mr Better, you can take your toxic little north western feud and shove it where the squirrel stores his nuts. The rest of us would
prefer if the pair of youse kept your pretensions for the self styled 'biggest team in england' to yourselves.  We love the game.
We dont follow it in order to hate the residents of the town down the road
HTH
La Tarp
Report wallis March 17, 2014 10:11 AM GMT
Did Charwell write the opening article or is it taken from somewhere else ?
Report ours4keeps March 17, 2014 10:30 AM GMT
So tarps point is that the unwholesomeness of Liverpool's dominance is that they decided to play decent stuff while all around them played long ball guff. Someone call the feds!

As for the violent northern monkeys jibe let's not forget that not all southerners are pimms drinking fairies and the likes of Graham Roberts was a bit of a thug while Gazza, for all his talent, will always be remembered for injuring himself when he tried to cripple Gary Charles. Maybe tarps should check his surroundings before launching those stones.

As for the glorious (not at all dodgy and bent) 1966 win - it was 50 years ago ffs. And we only won it because it was held here.
Report thelatarps March 17, 2014 11:38 AM GMT
Fair play O4k
the point i was trying to make, very poorly put I admit, was that at least LFCs dominance came about because they adhered to their principles
Man Utd under ferguson, well its my contention that he was allowed to dominate with the richest club in an era when the game became more about money than anything else

I think I speak for most fans when I say we view the LFC/ManU battle as a tedious provincial rivalry given far too much prominence by the uk media
When they were winning, supporting LFC in europe or Man U became something of a badge of honour for fleet street. As if to say 'well the national teams from the uk are never going to win anything so our best chance of seeing johnny foreigner getting a beating is nailing our colours to their mast'. Particularly with ManU being seen as more British under ferguson than multicultural arsenal or chelsea with their overseas managers

And let us not forget that Fergus got his template for referee intimidation from Liv, a fact he has acknowledged in a roundabout sort of a way. Well before Howard Webb there was a chap called George Courtney who was england's senior ref and referred to by LFC fans as uncle george.

When one team dominates a league as these 2 have been allowed to do in the recent past it is a poor state of affairs. Yes it happens all over europe and thats not ideal either but the last time I checked, the French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch national teams regularly appear at the business end of international tournaments which doesnt happen here.

You can scoff at 66 and while the south americans have legitimate grievances its worth while remembering that england went to mexico in 1970 as the best europe had to offer. The defeat to Germany in the quarters was a freakish result involving as it did an england team playing the germans off the park for the first 70 odd minutes.
Nowadays the best the english can muster is some sort of Park-The-Bus mentality, playing for extra time and penalties which we all know they haven't an earthly of winning. Same sort of tactics Man U and chelsea employed in their much vaunted champs Lg triumphs.

LFC in their day did dominate Europe playing a brand of shall we say continental possession football alien to much of what the football league had to offer. But they had a crucial advantage in that they were able to select Scottish and Irish players, as many as they liked when most of europe were reduced to at most 2 foreign players, none at all in some cases.

Its an odd anomaly that these 2 great empires of english football were unable to affect any sort of improvement in the standards of the national team the way that others like Barca, Bayern, Ajax, Milan and Madrid have done.

Almost as if LFC and ManU have become the de facto national teams themselves. I would argue especially in the case of Fergus that their success harmed the national team.

THe hope is now, that with all the money in the EPL it can lead to a stronger competition as in the late 60s early 70s when the national team was something to behold.
Would it not be great if a team like southampton could hold on to their all star players like Lallana and win a premier league title?
It may take a system of play offs and abandoning the tedious 30 odd game slog that does nothing but assist the rich.
Who knows LFC and Man U supporters may even get to develop a new set of rivalries and forget about the other lot down the road
Report TheBetterBettor March 17, 2014 12:41 PM GMT
Golly gosh Ive seemed to upset mr tarps. Quite understandable since his club still pines for the Chas n Dave years. Laugh
Report lurka March 17, 2014 2:26 PM GMT
How did Fergie's success harm the national team? By pulling players from friendlies and getting them to retire from Intl football early? What more can a club do than provide its top talents for the national team? Fergie wasn't the England manager as well.

The reason other Euro countries benefited from their great sides is probably got a little more to do with their international managers, the players themselves and media that are actually on the side of the team and get the whole country behind it. In England you have a gutter press and SKY which overhypes every single player in an England shirt and builds up the national team for a massive fall every time and it loves nothing more than to see the team fail and get stuck into the players and manager afterwards. The same hacks who hype the players slate them afterwards.

Hodgson is talked about as if he's some managerial legend. He's average at best. Even with the players England has now they should be doing a lot better.
Report mesmerised March 17, 2014 2:39 PM GMT
Tbf to United, they provided us with Scholes, Neville and Beckham and during his reign probably provided more squad members than any other club, although I don't know the figures and there was a lot of big club bias over the years, Scholes who is the best English player I've ever seen retired early because he said he was tired of balls flying over his head, players hitting holloywood passes trying to get noticed b bigger clubs, Beckham one of few who really cared or at least looked liked it and Neville rarely had bad games.

The pressure the media puts on England built England up so high when they inevitably buckled under it, it was a long way down. Only positive to take is that we were always hard to beat in  tournaments hence countless penalty shootouts, only Germany in recent tournaments shave given us a battering.
Report thelatarps March 17, 2014 3:51 PM GMT
It's surely one of the biggest myths surrounding ferguson that he was good for the national team. Wellbeck is about the only player in recent years and he's been farmed out to others who deserve as much credit. Not surprising given the rules demanding epl clubs stick to their local areas for young talent. Then again us spurs fans have long since laughed at the notion of the young beckham relocating oop north because of his love of Bryan capt marvel robson. Fact that father Ted was able to move house from leytonstone to leafy chingford after a certain red faced Caledonian had been spotted in the vicinity was probably nothing to do with it. Ironically enough the value of the house in leytonstone  would surpass that of unfashionable chingford these days but that's enough London house prices.
Anyway let's look at the facts. Scholes retired early, wether that was due to the dislike of the Gerard lampard axis or the fact that his agricultural style of tackling would not be looked upon as kindly by foreign refs as those in the epl, I know not. Wouldn't be the greatest stretch to imagine ferguson talking him into it either. Gigs phoned in more appearances for wales than anyone in the history of intl football. Beckham gave his all for the nat team and that among other reasons was why ferguson was so quick to get rid.
As has become apparent in recent weeks fergusons knowledge of the overseas transfer market was about as impressive as my understanding of the large hadron collider. Fergusons m.o. Was to buy from the epl thus strengthening his hand and weakening his rivals at the same time. Usually to the accompaniment of media sycophants and their sickening refrain 'man utd are the biggest club in the world'. Net result was that young English talent would either be underemployed on the bench or in the case of Rooney ran into the ground over the course of the punishing English season. Imagine had Rooney stood at Everton. He may have won the odd trophy even enjoyed a season or two in the ucl. But he would have understood what it was to play in a team where u have to work for every win. Where his occasional violent tendencies & snarling at refs would harm the team cause by his expulsion.  Quite a bit like playing for England. Anyway come the summer odds are that mr roo will be a whole lot fresher than in recent tourneys. Quite like the idea of him enjoying his best  World Cup whilst sitting on 300 bags/ wk of Man U money.
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