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27 Dec 10 00:11
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Date Joined: 12 Mar 02
| Topic/replies: 38,841 | Blogger: peter the butcher's blog
Not long before transfer window opens and although Sir Alex Ferguson says he is not a big fan of the January opportunity, he has been known to come up with the odd surprise!

Newspapers say Pepe Reina is a target. True he is unsettled at United but would he move to United knowing the "rumpus" that caused. Also United have earmarked young Anders Lindergaard as the long time successor to Van Der Sar but Reina much better at the moment.

The other name that keeps getting mentioned at Old Trafford is the Chilean winger Alexis Sanchez. I heard that Inter were going to sign him but he is waiting to see if United move for him first. Not sure about truth in this because Antonio Valencia is making a quicker recovery than first thought and I would have thought Sir Alex might be prioritising  a centre half and midfielder but who knows.

Anderson is starting to show a lot more of his undoubted ability but the defence is key for United if they want another title. Sunderland were not great today but United's defence was absolutely solid, unlike much of this season. Anyway we will find out a bit more at Birmingham on Tuesday as they will be tested a lot more by a fresh side with plenty of time to prepare.

Anyway good luck to fans at all clubs in this festive period. It could go a long way to deciding your season.

For United fans looking for a 19th title-  BELIEVE
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Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 7:24 PM BST
In an act of patriotism and support for a provincial local team against a big club, (and fully expecting to collect), I am going to lay Madrid tonight.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 8:17 PM BST
good decision pandy
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 8:21 PM BST
the scousers getting embaressed and stevie me and johnson having a giggle with Ronaldo in the last few minutes.

Laugh
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 8:23 PM BST
anfield very quiet
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 8:26 PM BST
even quieter now
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 8:37 PM BST
Tbh the pace sharpness and passing of Madrid would have most teams struggling.

Gerrard is walking most of the game and its only first half.
defence a shambles, probably worse than ours at presentLaugh
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:11 PM BST
liverpool doing a tad better
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:32 PM BST
r m playing in 1st gear
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:40 PM BST

Oct 22, 2014 -- 7:24PM, Pandorica wrote:


In an act of patriotism and support for a provincial local team against a big club, (and fully expecting to collect), I am going to lay Madrid tonight.


Apologies if you followed me in this bet, but in all honesty you must be a fcking idiot.

Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:41 PM BST
I think we saw what charlton refers to as reversion to the mean.
I know. I read it on wiki.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 9:41 PM BST
Decent enough night on the footy.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 9:43 PM BST
Let Pandy sacrifice himself, its the least he could do after all the help we gave him this afternoon.
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:47 PM BST
To be fair I thought Liverpool were the better team for the first half.
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:48 PM BST
Sorry.
... the better team for the first half minute.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:50 PM BST
pandy your tipping is a laughHappy
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:50 PM BST
keep to sequins
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:51 PM BST
I wouldn't exactly call it tipping. If you think of it as more "taking the p1ss" you'll be on the right lines.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:53 PM BST
add aftertiming to the offenceLaugh
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 9:53 PM BST
Ummmm... I think you need to track back about 3 years on here and see how it works.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 9:54 PM BST
peters lover must still be eating
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:07 PM BST
I love Brendan's interviews, he never lets you down with how brilliant his team was whatever the result. His use of superlatives  is always worth a spread bet. If they lose I usually go for 5-7 and if they win 9-11. Anything describing how good or how unlucky they were counts

Tonight we had outstanding, very very good, pride, excellent, unfortunate, very very good (again), can't ask any more, very very well, excellent (again), reasonably well

To be fair to him I did like his genuine reaction towards Balotelli swapping shirts at half time.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:12 PM BST
degsy has had a real popcorn night
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:14 PM BST
It was only two full seasons ago we should have knocked Madrid out, The wrongful Nani sending off plus Van Persie missing that late chance in Madrid was the difference. Arguably Madrid were a better team that year.

Imagine us playing them now....Sad
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 10:14 PM BST
At least he didn't say it was our best performance of the season eh Pete? And the season - fandabidozy.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:17 PM BST
brendas days are numbered
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:20 PM BST
I know you're hurting ours4keeps but tbf Rodgers does it in every post match interview.

Incidentally which performance would you put down as United's best of the season?

Just because United didn't win at West Brom shouldn't detract from the attacking performance which I thought was the best so far in an admittedly poor season.
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 10:24 PM BST
Fwiw, in the first half at West Brom there were brief periods when we moved the ball better than I've seen any team move it this season. It didn't last long but it was there Laugh
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 10:26 PM BST
Qpr Pete. A win, preferably. The attacking "performance" is massively overblown. You had lots of pressure but you weren't exactly peppering their goal or cutting them open at will. And defence is part of the game and when Herrera, Blind, Shaw and Dojo play that poorly (as well as rvp and Mata) then your manager looks an utter cretin trying to paint that as best so far.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:26 PM BST
Spot on Pandy, I said yesterday that we had 15-20 min periods where we played brilliantly but then had spells where we were poor.

Overall I thought it was the most encouraging performance but the defence really needs sorting asap.
Report sofiakenny October 22, 2014 10:28 PM BST
my take on rock of gibralter ...have a present pal..you own 50% as a gift from us paddies
..hoss wins 88 group ones in a row...flamin heck this is serious moolah!...hoss worth squillions in stud fees...sorry fergie you have made enough from our "gift"..you aint getting any more pal..
fergie goes look you jokers I own 50% nd I want my cash when it goes pumping mares for fun..you ungrateful sod sez the paddies..imo both parties equally guilty?greedy.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:29 PM BST
A win doesn't denote a better performance????

So you played better at QPR than you did at home to Everton?
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:30 PM BST
I would say that's spot on kenny.
Report chelseakai1 October 22, 2014 10:30 PM BST
Good luck with the operation, got a feeling it will be a long afternoon for United, especially if you don't defend well, we are getting better every game and look like a very good all round team. We'll have a few drinks later in the season if your knees better.
Report PBK October 22, 2014 10:33 PM BST
Evening all £70 spunked on a so so meal, ribs where spot on so was the other half's steak but the rest was adequate at best never heard of the company Miller and Carter. When I asked if they were a chain and the reply yes came back linked to Toby, Harvester I knew it was going to be sh!t. Could of had a decent curry for that or chucked another 30 or 40 quid at it and eat somewhere decent. Oh well fu cking scouse could of had the decency to score one goal ! And Arsenal's late come back screwed me for a few bob.
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 10:33 PM BST
Well you didn't concede 2 v qpr, there's a starter. 2-2 v a bottom 5 side where you flickered briefly is something at best to shrug off. Reminds me of Woy with us claiming every promoted team as a real test and every home draw as an important point. Head scratchingly stupid.
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 10:35 PM BST
Sterile.
Report PBK October 22, 2014 10:37 PM BST
Pete I'm having a Princess Diana moment I feel there's three of us in this relationship. Sad
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:38 PM BST
Hang on a minute ours4keeps, isn't it you suggesting that our best performance has been against a promoted team in QPR?
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:39 PM BST
Don't worry just yet pbk but avoid tunnels in Paris if you can...
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 10:39 PM BST
Avoid the whole of France please
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:40 PM BST
harrods is a no go area also
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:40 PM BST
Thanks chelseakai.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:42 PM BST
bbc, the security at Harrods wouldn't let pbk anywhere near the place.

Not since the incident at Hamleys.....
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:42 PM BST
just dock his free curry offer pbk he is a real tart
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 10:42 PM BST
Yep. Not saying it was brilliant though, just better than drawing at WBA. And no need for Lgv to get a lob on if you draw against bottom half teams, unless - as with Woy - he's desperately trying to lower expectations and save his own bacon.
Report PBK October 22, 2014 10:42 PM BST
Pandy I like France for a holiday but don't worry our chances of meeting are slim to none as men in Lycra doesn't do for me but hey whatever rocks your boat !
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 10:44 PM BST
Kenny, it was well known in racing circles that coolmore were getting celebs to front some of their lesser lights to boost stud fees and awareness of the stallion.
I knew long before the argument that Ferguson has a half share in prize money only.
The problem was as the rock only did enough o brien hadn't realised it was so good and wouldn't have needed any bigging up.

When Ferguson realised the horse might be worth multi millions he chanced his arm probably hoping to come to an arrangement rather than a court case.

Coolmore dug in and wouldn't be bullied instead doing their own bullying in the board room.

A confidential aggreement was reached.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:44 PM BST
That's my point about your performance at QPR being better than your home match against Everton if you are judging performance by results. I must be blind....
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 10:45 PM BST
Result orientated. Will people ever learn to think properly? It fcking depresses me. And we still do nothing in our schools to address the issue.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:46 PM BST
oldesp, are you saying that Ferguson was told at the very beginning that his share did not include stud fees and knew that all along?
Report PBK October 22, 2014 10:50 PM BST
Better go up what with it being our anniversary, might get to perform Night all Wink
Report sofiakenny October 22, 2014 10:50 PM BST
despo..if agreement was only prize money...what the hell was fergies problem?
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:51 PM BST
have a nice one pbkCool
Report Pandorica October 22, 2014 10:52 PM BST
22.51
He'll be asleep by 22.57
And the delay will be him cleaning his teeth
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:54 PM BST
is that a new form of contraception?
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 10:55 PM BST
That was the story going around and I heard that long before any argument.
Very early in horses career in fact.

Coolmore don't need to share ownership on a small scale but had given the same agreement to some other celeb at that time and Ferguson had another one previously with them that won a group 3 I think.

I think coolmores intention was the raise the profile of some lesser lights for stud purposes.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:56 PM BST
Think of your medical issues pbk. No not those that require the blue pill. The heart issue mate.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:56 PM BST
That's all hearsay oldesp
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:57 PM BST
your curry is safe peter
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 10:58 PM BST
if fergie had it in writing he would have gone to court.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 10:58 PM BST
Anyway the issue isn't "long before the argument".

The important bit is when Ferguson received his share, what was the understanding at that point?

I'm not saying Ferguson didn't know, I'm asking the question.

Either way I think Ferguson was wrong to take it as far as he did.
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 10:58 PM BST
Did Rodgers come out after qpr with his knob in his hand saying how good we were? You were ok against wba, nothing better. Good pressure up front but pretty hopeless at the back. If you want a manager to kid you into saying that's acceptable then get Woy in and do the country a favour. If you want to cling on to his words and believe there's a corner being turned then we're in for another laugh. And to believe that it's short termist to note results is a real head underground moment. As I showed in my comparison to last year's results any notion of progress is based on very little evidence. At best, you've improved slightly but not as quickly as others. (I'd be looking for odds for Everton to finish ahead of you once again for one thing) and certainly not to the tune of the money you've spent.
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 11:04 PM BST
Kenny,
If Ferguson was an official owner regestered with IHB then he would have won any court case in the land.

I've been an owner and documention is rigid

I don't see him giving up a fight he would win
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:06 PM BST
Greed.
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 11:11 PM BST
It is certainly hearsay Pete but I heard it from the beginning and it was the argument then put up by coolmore when it kicked off.

Anyway any truth in the rumour ballotelli walked out when told he was coming off.
Read it on another thread , did Rodgers say something in his interview
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:12 PM BST
oldesp, don't want to get involved into something where a lot of the facts are not known but;

Ferguson was registered as a 50% owner and Mrs Magnier as the other 50% owner with the Horse Racing Ireland. However it turns out that Magnier  registered a collective name of "Rock Of Gibraltor Syndicate" in the Weatherbys General Stud Book instead of Ferguson or Mrs Magnier.

That stud book is the important one and Magnier said that Ferguson and Mrs Magnier were not named and the ROG Syndicate meant the Coolmore group.

Does any of that surprise you?
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:14 PM BST
Look I know you Irish boys like to stick together Ozy but try and look at it from both sides.

I have said many times that I believe Ferguson was wrong to pursue it but its interesting that it was settled out of court.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:14 PM BST
fergie was a chancer peter
Report ours4keeps October 22, 2014 11:16 PM BST
And a champagne socialist
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:17 PM BST
Certainly he was wrong to pursue it beeb.

It all depends on what he was told at the beginning and what he genuinely believed. None of us know that
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:18 PM BST
Kenny talking about Magnier as 'Paddy' like he was some sort of simpleton!

There was no discussion about stud fees when they offered him the chance to have the horse race in his colours because it was seen as absurd that SAF would even think of claiming them.  Subsequently, SAF saw the prospect of extreme wealth and lost the run of himself.  The underlying documentation did not support his claim.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:20 PM BST
There are no two sides to this. Just a man from Govan getting ideas above his station.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:20 PM BST
oldesp,

Yes Rodgers said that Blaotelli had walked off but did it brilliantly putting a lot of work into it. It was an outstanding effort to walk out of the club like that. Devil
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:21 PM BST
Which underlying documentation Ozy?
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:24 PM BST
All correspondence and registration materials.
Report olddesperado October 22, 2014 11:25 PM BST
That version is very plausible Pete so the question then is did Ferguson know this.
While I owned a few up and down I wouldn't be an insider by any means yet that was the story I heard from the beginning that Ferguson owned a half share of prize money as a gift ( as no money passed hands ) and in return would raise the profile of the horse.

I guess we,LL never know for sure one way or another and in the past now any way.

Right bed for me.
Night all
Report sofiakenny October 22, 2014 11:25 PM BST
Ozzy if you equate "paddies" with "simpletons" thats your take..not mine.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:27 PM BST
He was chancing his arm, simple as.  The stud fees were not explicitly discussed at the time he was offered the horse to run in his colours, it was so beyond the pale as to have not even been deemed worthy of mention.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:31 PM BST
Sofia, Your characterisation of Paddies in your post suggest that you think they were simpletons;

flamin heck this is serious moolah!....does that sound like John Magnier to you??
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:32 PM BST
the sums involved with top stallions is huge.a business man i knew and his friend who owned a chain of butchers shops decided to buy a horse.on the day of the auction the butcher bought a horse which resembled a pedigree cow.the horse was called music boy and won six high class sprint races.they now had a prime stallion on their hands and decided to buy a stud.that stud was called the cheverley park stud.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:33 PM BST
Ozymandius 22 Oct 14 23:24 Joined: 01 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 11,709 | Blogger: Ozymandius's blog

All correspondence and registration materials.


Lol, you mean you haven't a clue but it sounded good Grin


If the documentation did not support Ferguson's claim why did Magnier etc offer Ferguson one "stud result" in Ireland and one in Australia per year for the horse's duration which was thought to be around ten years. When Ferguson turned it down they then offered four "stud results" in Ireland and four in Australia per year.

when Ferguson turned that down they still made a last ditch compromise before court.

Magnier not the sort to offer deals or compromises ordinarily.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:36 PM BST
peter if fergie was on strong ground he would have pursued the half share
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:37 PM BST
the top stallions serve 4 mares a day.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:38 PM BST
Ozymandius 22 Oct 14 23:27 Joined: 01 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 11,711 | Blogger: Ozymandius's blog

He was chancing his arm, simple as.  The stud fees were not explicitly discussed at the time he was offered the horse to run in his colours, it was so beyond the pale as to have not even been deemed worthy of mention.


I think you are right and the stud fees probably weren't discussed but we don't know this. Why they weren't discussed is not known.

Personally I would have been chuffed to have got the shares and if told the stud fees weren't included at a later stage I would just have accepted it. Ferguson obviously felt differently.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:42 PM BST
They were happy to placate him with stud offerings, effectively zero cost to  them.

Not in anyone's interest (bar the lawyers) to go to court which was why it was tidied up outside of court.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:43 PM BST
beeb, he did pursue it. He took them to court and they settled before the trial.

He reckons that he settled because he didn't want an overspill affecting the club. At the time he settled he was in a strong position even though Magnier had started throwing muck in his direction. Magnier was the one who asked the United board to look into Ferguson's son handling some transfers and for payments to agents and at one stage there were fears that the issue could result in the Magnier's demanding Ferguson be sacked.

The right thing was to end it despite his reluctance at the time.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:45 PM BST
Why they weren't discussed is not known.

It is known and I have told you why above.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:45 PM BST
he didnt get a half share peter
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:45 PM BST
"Placate him" Confused

So they were happy to give him around half a million pounds every year for ten years or more?? That must be the effectively zero cost to them bit.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:49 PM BST
thats not a lot a days work for the stallion
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:49 PM BST
I think Ferguson was wrong to pursue it but he did it because he thought he was right.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:50 PM BST
He was a key employee in a business they owned.  Hence the placation.

Offering him coverings does not equate to handing him money.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:51 PM BST
how much would you expect from eight coverings a year in this case beeb?


I have worked it out at around 60k each but surely it varies depending on results.
Report sofiakenny October 22, 2014 11:51 PM BST
peter..dont waste your breath..this Ozzy fellow knows it all.
Report peter the butcher October 22, 2014 11:51 PM BST
That's the point Ozy, he refused the coverings and they paid him money instead.
Report Ozymandius October 22, 2014 11:53 PM BST
Either greed got the better of his judgement or he has little concept of right or wrong.
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:57 PM BST
this year its 12500 per serving
Report bbc2 October 22, 2014 11:58 PM BST
in his first year it could have been over 100k per serving
Report bbc2 October 23, 2014 12:00 AM BST
obviously his offspring have not been world beaters
Report Ozymandius October 23, 2014 12:01 AM BST
As regards the 2.5m  paid, it was peanuts from Magniers pov, just to get the thing done and move on, no omre legal fees and distractions and negative publicity.  He was humiliated that his word was even being questioned.

Plus he knew his stake of Utd was worth a lot more with Fergie still on board.
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