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eric_morris
18 Mar 18 18:47
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Date Joined: 27 Jun 10
| Topic/replies: 5,015 | Blogger: eric_morris's blog
Plenty of darts yet STILL no Champion Chase or Gold Cup wins after years of trying.

Why cant Willie Wontie train top class chasers?
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Pause Switch to Standard View Mullins STILL no championship chase wins
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Report eric_morris March 18, 2018 5:49 PM GMT
Manages to win the second rate Ryanair but cant win the big ones?
Report unclepuncle March 18, 2018 6:04 PM GMT
Just a guess but I’d say it’s because there is always a better horse in the race.
Besides how the stewards didn’t overturn the result when Lord Windermere won is one of life’s great mysterys.
Report duffy March 18, 2018 11:09 PM GMT
still wouldn't have felt like a win even if they did....Wylie agreed too.
Report johnslad March 19, 2018 12:03 AM GMT
No wins for him or no wins for thee,who cares who wins if race's are enjoyable,what's the point in highlighting this fact,do you have an agenda of certain trainers that have beaten you're selection in other race's but this trainer is most prominent among them do you ever take an hour/day off from posting on here,I don't post much but like to read and can say have seen eric_morris in most books in this library
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 6:15 AM GMT
Not a fan of factual debate i see.
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 6:20 AM GMT
4 of the 15 runner field this year, over a quarter of the field could only manage one finisher who came 5th of 9. Staying chasers not a strength?
Report unclepuncle March 19, 2018 7:13 AM GMT
In which case take advantage of your incredible insight and just lay your bank on every Mullins runner in a 3m plus grade 1 chase and you’ll soon be a millionaire.
Simples.Grin
Report buddeliea March 19, 2018 7:52 AM GMT
I guess having so many hoses falling last week don't help in a trainers quest for chase winners.
Lost count how many, but I suspect somewhere between 10 and 20.
Report buddeliea March 19, 2018 12:26 PM GMT
Actually had 10 horses fall last week, but 4 of those were hurdlers.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 1:52 PM GMT
Mullins had a shocking number of fallers last week - of the 27 fallers, 10 were Mullins.To put this another way, Mullins had 13% of the total runners but 37% of the total fallers. That reads very badly.

However people can get way too hung up on stats like these. These stats are an anomaly and not typical of his Cheltenham record over the years and there is no reason to believe he would have a similar rate of fallers in the future.

While he may not have won a Gold Cup yet, he has trained 6 runners up, so its not as though he doesn't know how to train a top class chaser. His overall record is superb and he once again had a fantastic Cheltenham with 7 winners for 7 different owners which would suggest to me that he is now in a far healthier position than ever before.
Report duffy March 19, 2018 2:01 PM GMT
It's going to be interesting watching Ricci going forward with regards to the great success he's enjoyed perhaps just petering out now and needing a new bunch of stars racing in his colours, both he and Wylie are in the same boat to a degree on that score.

Let's just see how things pan out if the glory horses providing the glory dry up a bit.
Report duffy March 19, 2018 2:01 PM GMT
glory days
Report buddeliea March 19, 2018 3:46 PM GMT
Its too many fallers for a supposedly top trainer,simple as that.

I have always had the opinion that Nicholls and Henderson are the best at training horses to jump a fence.
Mullins may have more ammo these days, but imo hes behind those two when it comes traning horses to jump fences.
Report impossible123 March 19, 2018 5:14 PM GMT
Total Recall was out of his depth in the Gold Cup; he was also money-grabbing in his previous race prior to the Gold Cup ie a hurdle race - what the heck for?

I'm, without a shadow of a doubt, had he been owned by Ricci that would not have happened. A hurdle race before the Gold Cup? What was Mr Mullins thinking? Utterly bizarre.
Report duffy March 19, 2018 6:56 PM GMT
Uhhh, perhaps he needed a run to bring him on.

The only reason he ran in the GC was because Mullins is desperate for a GC winner, so any horse likely is going to run in it, ideally he'd have been kept for the national but they couldn't afford that luxury.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:10 PM GMT
Nothing bizarre about it at all. Mullins improved the horse beyond recognition. There was a 100k handicap hurdle and the horse was entitled to run off his old, pre-Mullins, hurdles mark and he duly bolted up.

I would assume the plan is still to run in the Grand National and he would look to have as good a chance as any other at this stage
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:11 PM GMT
Said before on here he cant train them to jump fences and needs to bring someone in. Countless decent hurdlers who havent made the transition to fences. The likes of Mikael D'Haguenet who you would have thought in the hands of a Nicholls would have been a top notch trainer.
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:12 PM GMT
top notch chaser.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:16 PM GMT
Well Nicholls has about 200 of them in his hands so why is he not making some of them into top notch chasers?
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:18 PM GMT
Top class hurdlers he doesnt have.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:21 PM GMT
That makes him very unlucky then.And Mullins must be just very lucky.
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:23 PM GMT
Mikael D'Haguenet - Ballymore Hurdle winner

Fences - F53F4

Fell in the RSA, very talented horse could hardly jump a fence.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:26 PM GMT
Is that it - Mikael D'haguenet?
What about Footpad, Un De Sceaux, Douvan, Min, Djakadam to name just some of his current chasers in training?
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:28 PM GMT
This pattern continues. Nicholls does extremely well with what he has. Won 2 King George's with Silviniaco Conti which is a tremendous training performance as the horse was not quite top class imo.
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:30 PM GMT
Failed to win a Queen Mother with Douvan another example. Bad back from jumping issues?
Report eric_morris March 19, 2018 7:31 PM GMT
Nicholls not in Mullins class with hurdlers but the same other way around Mullins not in same class as Nicholls with chasers. This thread is about horses graduating to be champions over fences. Queen Mother and Gold Cup not the 2nd rate Ryanair.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:36 PM GMT
I accept that Nicholls was/is a great trainer. But I don't accept that, right now for whatever reason, he is doing well with what he has.Because the difference between Mullins/ Henderson and say Nicholls/King is that from similar numbers of horses and similar budgets, Mullins and Henderson(and Elliott) are leaving the rest behind when it comes to nurturing young talent into top class performers.
Report firstimevisor March 19, 2018 7:37 PM GMT
Douvan failed to win because he dislocated his pelvis
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 2:40 AM GMT
Perhaps he hasnt been taught to jump fences properly as with others in the past. It ties in with the higher proportion of fallers from the stable you noticed at the Festival though i am not saying that is the norm for the trainer at Cheltenham.
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 2:44 AM GMT
Nicholls isnt getting the young talent now that he once had. If he gets it he, along with Henderson (and most recently Elliott) is highly likely to develop it very well to Championship level, Mullins isnt they tend to not graduate as with Douvan.
Report unclepuncle March 20, 2018 7:20 AM GMT
I do remember watching Vautor winning the JLT and Ryanair and thinking to myself if only he was with a trainer who could teach horses to jump.Laugh

And Florida Pearl was another who really struggled to get from one side of a fence to another. Maybe if his trainer had given him a season over hurdles first he might have done better.Devil
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 7:52 AM GMT
Some horses are just natural though Uncle.

The fact is he does seem to have had a fair few that have struggled at the fences.
Report johnslad March 20, 2018 9:47 AM GMT
^^another anti Mullins get over UN de sceaux not appearing in champion hurdle
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 10:45 AM GMT
Eric, thats just nonsense. Nicholls has the owners who have the money, he has about 200 horses in training and doesn't appear to have a proper grade 1 horse in his yard, and hasn't had one for a few years now. Mullins has about 30 grade 1 horses from the same numbers. And yet you are trying to tell us that Mullins' owners would be better off giving their horses to Nicholls! In your world maybe.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 12:13 PM GMT
Personally think Mullins chasers would do just as well, maybe even better with Nicholls.
May even have won a Gold Cup or two or Queen Mum between them.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 1:42 PM GMT
You can only laugh at the bitterness on here. Nicholls can't win anything more than egg and spoon races with 200 horses. Mullins is mopping up top races with his 200. So the conclusion some of you are drawing therefore has to be that Nicholls is doing really well with what he has, overachieving even, while Mullins is underachieving! Wonderful
Report lordnoise March 20, 2018 1:48 PM GMT
I'd love to see O'Learys chaser wins to runs percentage when with WM and then after departure ...
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 1:48 PM GMT
Yet again lets remind ourselves this is about producing Championship chase winners, ie Champion Chase and Queen Mother from high quality top class hurdlers.
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 1:49 PM GMT
Champion Chase and Gold Cup
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 1:52 PM GMT
Oh right, so if Mullins won the GC next year then you could claim he doesn't know how to train 2 mile chasers?
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 1:56 PM GMT
Bitterness??!!!

Why on earth would anyone be bitter??

I Just have an opinion on Mullins training chasers, no more to it than that.
I used to say similar when Nicholls won all the big chases not so long ago, but seemed to struggle with winning top hurdle races.

Maybe Mullins fans need to chill a bit, and accept that like all other trainers he is not exempt from criticism.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 2:07 PM GMT
KV...another that continually looks like he's being introduced to a fence for the very first time every race.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 2:11 PM GMT
Yep, that's fair comment imo.
Maybe its the decision making that can be questioned? Rather than the actual training ability,which to me maybe makes more sense.
Hurdlers going chasing...should they.....or not ?
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 2:12 PM GMT
Budd I have no problem with criticism. Its just that some here, when it comes to Mullins, the criticism is relentless and way o t t. There's no doubt there is an agenda.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 2:19 PM GMT
Duffy, KV is a novice who doesn't have the luxury of running in novice company. Given his obvious lack of experience his jumping is actually not too bad.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 2:22 PM GMT
His jumping is shocking and he shouldn't have even been in the GC for his own safety, the first mile at Leopardstown was a horror show, to get where he did in that race just shows the engine he has still and is all credit to him.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 2:27 PM GMT
Ok mate.
It does seem though that any criticsm of Mullins is taken as if its being directed at people on here!!

Hes open to it like anyone else,and yes maybe sometimes people go OTT.
Maybe some do have an agenda.
Hes certainly annoyed me with some of his decisions,but then so have other trainers.I was not at all happy with Mr Hendersons campaigning of Oscar Whiskey and came on here and told anyone who wanted to take notice of my rantings!!
Everyone knows how I feel about UDS not running in the Champion Hurdle,but how on earth can that have anything to do with his training of chasers??
Unless I am just completely anti the man because of that.
That would make me bitter then of course.
I hope my posts on here don't reflect that.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 2:28 PM GMT
Don't be daft duffy. In Leopardstown he was novicey at the first 2 fences(it was just his third run over fences and his first for 2 years). After that he jumped beautifully - better than most of the senior pros- until he cleared the last ok but just didn't get his landing gear out. Again a novicey mistake.To call that a horror show is way off. He was about to hose up.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 2:35 PM GMT
I said he's got some engine to get him where he did, the first mile was a horror show.

In the GC he jumped 3 or 4 ok ish, for the most part he lost ground to a degree at pretty much most of the fences, when Johnson stepped on the gas into the last mile he was hopelessly caught out and his jumping went to pieces.

Good horse, big engine...hopeless jumper.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 3:13 PM GMT
Again I have to completely disagree. You say it was a horror show. He never touched a twig all the way round. He jumped a few of the early fences too deliberately, through lack of experience, but made no mistakes until landing wrong after the last.

In the GC his jumping was again fine, he made no mistakes until tiring in the last mile. Like a few of those who ran at Leopardstown - Our Duke,Outlander, Edwulf_ he never really travelled and pulled up.He just wasn't good enough on the day but it wasn't his jumping that beat him. If you think either of those jumping performance was a "horror show" then you must have constant nightmares.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 3:25 PM GMT
We were watching different horses.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 3:30 PM GMT
We must have been. If you can point out what fences he hit I will go back and take another look but I'm sure I would have noticed before.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 3:34 PM GMT
I'm not necessarily saying he hits fence after fence, I'm saying that every fence is a hindrance to him, he climbs over them, he skews his back-end too, which was noticeable at Leop, and not just at the fence he fell at, he does not attack his fences getting in too close at several losing momentum constantly.

Just look at the point in the GC where Johnson steps up the pace, just when you need your jumping to be a real asset, he race was taken away instantly.
Report impossible123 March 20, 2018 3:35 PM GMT
Mullins's just an average trainer of chasers. Even now it still baffles me why KV and TR were doing in the Gold Cup, the former a scrappy jumper and the latter just an out-and-out handicapper whose previous run was in a handicap hurdle race. Absolutely barmy!
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 3:42 PM GMT
He didn't lose  momentum at any fence. He may have a slightly ungainly jumping technique still but he gets from one side to the other no problem at all. There's really nothing wrong with his jumping at all apart from lack of experience.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:04 PM GMT
Impossible123. Total Recall was in the process of running a good race, perhaps third, when falling.

Five months ago he had a chase rating of 129 and a hurdles rating of 125. He then went to Mullins, won the Munster National and the Newbury Hennessy and then a 100k hurdle at the Dublin festival and is now rated 156 and 146. So I suppose that does really make him just an average trainer of chasers then does it?
Report duffy March 20, 2018 4:10 PM GMT
firstimevisor
     20 Mar 18 15:42
He didn't lose  momentum at any fence. He may have a slightly ungainly jumping technique still but he gets from one side to the other no problem at all. There's really nothing wrong with his jumping at all apart from lack of experience. 


We were definitely watching different horses.
Report duffy March 20, 2018 4:11 PM GMT
I'm actually shocked by that statement ftv
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:12 PM GMT
Still waiting for examples of the horror show duffy
Report duffy March 20, 2018 4:14 PM GMT
I don't think there's any point.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:19 PM GMT
Can you give me an example of a bad mistake, or even a momentum stopper, in either race excluding the last mile of the GC when he was clearly beaten and tiring?
Report cyclops March 20, 2018 4:24 PM GMT
I've often wondered whether Mullins' inability to win a Gold Cup or Champion Chase is simply an anomaly or reflects on his training methods. His Ryanair wins might suggest the latter, although, of course, his record in the three big Grade 1 Irish staying chases has also been lacking.
All I can add is the thought that all his good horses are good from the start; outstanding novices and bumper horses are his hallmark (as well as Champion hurdlers). Perhaps the "minding" of a good horse that Elliott often refers to does not occur so much with Mullins. He gets them ready to win Grade 1's from an early age and there is less to work on as they mature. By the time they are at an age where they could be winning the big ones, improvement has flattened out and they are found wanting.
I'm far from convinced by my own argument, yet there is surely some reason why the pre-eminent trainer of his age has yet to win either of chasing's two greatest Grade 1 prizes.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:31 PM GMT
He has only won Ireland's premier Grade 1 staying chase, the Irish GC 9 times. Does this qualify?
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:34 PM GMT
And in 2016 he won 34 Grade 1s worldwide.A record that I can guarantee will never be bettered. Does this get him off the hook?
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 4:46 PM GMT
Not on this no, why would it? Stop taking things personally. When we criticise possible stable laying thats having a go this isnt.
Report impossible123 March 20, 2018 4:52 PM GMT
Anyone who thinks KV is an adequate jumper of fences needs to be certified or a visit to 'Specsaver', I firmly believe. KV clearly gives scant regard to the obstacles and occasionally but surely whacks the odd few in his way; he's less fencing ability than even the likes of Finian's Oscar or Yanworth.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 4:54 PM GMT
Now Eric, there are more than enough Mullins knockers around this forum don't you think. I don't take it personally but I do think its important, and in the interest of fair play, that they are not always given a free ride.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 4:55 PM GMT
In reference to KV.
Someone said about Vautour's jumping......a complete natural.
I dont see that with KV. I see a horse that does what he can to get over the fences but to me simply not a natural.Some he jumps ok,some he jumps well but overall an average jumper,who imo will always be found wanting at the level his ability as a horse says he should competing in.
Hes one i would consider the decision to go chasing was questionable.
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 4:55 PM GMT
They are extremely well compensated for their efforts more than others can dream of. Discussing fors and againsts is what a forum is for.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 4:59 PM GMT
The problem with using winning Irish Gold Cups as an example is most of the time he has been beating his own horses.
I wonder how many he will win now that Elliott and others have Gigginstown horses.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 4:59 PM GMT
The problem with using winning Irish Gold Cups as an example is most of the time he has been beating his own horses.
I wonder how many he will win now that Elliott and others have Gigginstown horses.
Report eric_morris March 20, 2018 5:07 PM GMT
Sometimes horses who arent great jumpers can do it as the tiny Bobs Worth showed.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 5:09 PM GMT
It was in response to the claim above that his record in grade 1 staying chases in Ireland is lacking.

I take it then that that's an acknowledgement that he is prepared to run his horses against each other( because there are still idiots who claim otherwise)
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 5:12 PM GMT
I wonder if having so many good horses has anything to do with it all.
I mean trying to fit them all in,pleasing owners,trying to win as many races as possible,could lead to some hurdlers going chasing when they possibly would be better off staying hurdling?.
Just thoughts putting out there.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 5:20 PM GMT
Understand mate,and yes he does run horses against each other in Ireland.
Quiet often i have seen a Grade 1 hurdle with virtually all his horses making up the field,although normally one of his very best ones does not run,eg Fly and Faugheen.
Correct me if i am wrong,but has he actually had top 3m chasers last few years.
Djakadam fair enough,Vautour top class but went Ryanair,maybe my minds gone blank but i cannot think of any others!!
Report duffy March 20, 2018 5:25 PM GMT
Sir Des Champs, didn't quite stay GC
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 5:27 PM GMT
Having so many good horses all the time is not just a coincidence. Its a nice position to be in. Any trainer worth his salt would try to win as many races as possible,what do people expect.

You can have only one champion hurdler in your yard at any given time.Remember a few years ago when the usual outraged, impossible to please crew were calling for Faugheen, Annie Power, UDS, Vautour and Douvan all to run in the Champion Hurdle just so they could find out which was the best and which was the worst. Instead,but for AP's fall Mullins would have won grade 1s with all of them at the Festival. That was superb training although some said it was just Mullins being greedy by trying to win as many races as possible, as if that's somehow wrong.
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 5:30 PM GMT
That was Bobsworth year,not a vintage one that imo.
No surprise getting outstayed by him though!!
Report buddeliea March 20, 2018 5:41 PM GMT
As always though,there is more than one way to look at it.
Yes i absolutely agree it was good training to get all those to win at the festival.
For me personally,i would have preferred that they had all been trained at different yards,then i may have got to see races that i would remember for ever,and quiet possibly remembering them as among the best races i had ever seen.
To be honest you have probably just mentioned 5 of the best Champion Hurdlers of this generation........or could have been.
unfortunately only two of them ran in it,and one of them was because of injury to one of the others.
And i do understand his reasoning,and i am sure his owners were happy.
Anyway thats another argument and one thats been done to death.
Report firstimevisor March 20, 2018 5:55 PM GMT
On the other hand 2015 stands out for me as one of the best Festivals ever because there were so many superb performances. Had they all run in the CH, Mullins would have had the first seven home and some would have been beaten out of sight. Then we would just shrug our shoulders and move on to the next race but the rest of the meeting wouldn't have been quite the same.
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