Cheltenham Festival

Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
27 Oct 17 23:01
Date Joined: 09 May 10
| Topic/replies: 956 | Blogger: firstimevisor's blog
There's very little news about him other than he's fully recovered from his injury and back in full training.

Last year I thought they just might run him in the King George. It didn't happen but he was left in until final decs and WPM did say he briefly considered running.

This time I'm convinced he'll run in the KG. He's going to be stepped up in trip sooner or later and to me the King George  looks the obvious race for it. Would love to see it happen.
Share |
Show More
Report firstimevisor December 18, 2017 4:09 PM GMT
Buddeliea, I used starchitect as an example because there appears to be very little sympathy or understanding on this forum for sick or injured horses, yet when one dies tragically on live TV then some of these same people get too emotional to even hear any mention of the subject.

Having grown up surrounded by horses I do understand how fragile they are, how they can be fine one day and not so fine the next. Racehorses are equine professional athletes and injuries are part and parcel of any training yard. Mostly,if a horse is not 100% right and you've established that nothing obvious is broken,then a few days standing in or very light exercise will see them come right. If not then further investigation is necessary.

That's how it has worked for centuries, yet since the arrival of the exchanges and social media a mere wet week ago we now have idiots everywhere who assume that there's something sinister behind every high profile horse that's reported sick or injured. The trainers with the most high profile horses,Tizzard, Henderson and particularly Mullins, get serious unfair stick on here.If you go into any big yard with 150-200 horses in training you will find probably 30-40 of them on the easy list at any given time. Trainers have to put the same work and thought into their low grade handicappers as their stars.

Yet they are on a hiding to nothing when it comes to public announcements about sidelined horses. If they say they are happy with progress so far and the horse subsequently gets a further setback then he really must have known that all along and laid it. If he says he's not happy with a horse's progress and he subsequently gets entered then he knew this all along and backed it. If he says nothing at all then people want to know what he's hiding.I do know one thing for certain about Mullins - he has no interest in betting.Zero interest,and that's a fact.

A trainer's job is to prep horses for the racecourse. His integrity should be measured on how those horses perform once they have been declared to run. It is only at that point that it becomes our business.
Report Can't Catch Me December 18, 2017 5:08 PM GMT
Excellent post ftv. Absolutely bang on.

The Mullins bashing is embarrassing.
Report ReaseHeath December 18, 2017 5:33 PM GMT
To me, the narrative around Douvan just suggests that the problem has come to light following the increased intensity in his work to get him ready to run in a Grade One.

They were n't obliged to rule him out for the season at this point either - could have strung it out until February in the hope that he comes right.

If you don't trust/believe Mullins then just don't back any of his horses antepost - seems quite simple to me.
Report irishone December 18, 2017 9:04 PM GMT
thing is ... his jumping of the steeplechase fence is dangerous in itself. does it not explain the pelvic injury?. he jumped steeplechase fences like hurdles, flicking through the top of them and creating backward force on his pelvic area as the rest of his body is propelled forward by his rear hind.
Report impossible123 December 19, 2017 6:44 AM GMT
Very observant, 'irishone'? Have you told his trainer? He could train the horse to jump a different way as long as it is not similar to Yorkhill's.

Will we ever see him competitively on a racecourse next season, if at all?
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 7:54 AM GMT
If you don't trust/believe Mullins then just don't back any of his horses antepost - seems quite simple to me.

Yep, pretty much sums it up for me,and I have said before that backing his shorties antepost is not advisable, and I don't do it.

I still think that if one feels strongly enough about individuals in the game then one has every right to say.The fact we don't all what??
For me their is enough evidence over the years to have doubts with this yard.
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 8:04 AM GMT
I would like to think we all understand the fragility of horses and you make some fair points.

Still don't think what happened with Starchitect should have been used in this instance though.

A trainer's job is to prep horses for the racecourse. His integrity should be measured on how those horses perform once they have been declared to run. It is only at that point that it becomes our business.

Very true, but the problem with that is,he and his main owner have been known to choose to inform us of running plans and then change at the last minute(Vautour Ryanair/Gold Cup fiasco an example)and that don't help when it comes to integrity,not in my eyes anyway..
Report unclepuncle December 19, 2017 11:32 AM GMT
What about all the hoo-hah after Binocular and Kicking King were publically ruled out and then miraculously turned up to win a Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup respectively. Was that Mullins fault too?
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 12:06 PM GMT
Have I suggested that the integrity of the sport has not been questioned with other connections?
This is a Douvan thread that has involved his connections.
Nothing to do with other trainers.
If you want to talk about the integrity of other trainers/connections then maybe you should start a seperate thread.
Report firstimevisor December 19, 2017 2:54 PM GMT
Ah yes the old Vautour/Ryanair fiasco.I'm more than a little surprised at you stooping so low as to use a poor dead horse by way of example!

But seeing as you have brought it up for probably the 100th time,then lets go back over it again:
Ricci went to an informal preview night, had a few drinks,his ego got the better of him and he said Vautour would either run in the GC or stay at home in his box.
Two days before the festival started, Mullins decided he was running in the Ryanair.
Mullins was doing what he and every other trainer does every week - keeping all options open until as late as possible and then opted to switch from his original plan.
Ricci was embarrassed, apologised unreservedly, and his betting firm paid out on Vautour as the winner of the GC.
The fiasco made no difference to the majority of punters who wait until raceday.
Some antepost punters were disgruntled.Some were delighted. This is something that goes with the territory and its a risk that we all sign up for when we bet antepost.

If you think that stuff like this makes Mullins a cheat then that's your right. You don't have to keep pointing out that it's your right - we know.
But it's also my right to disagree. I see no problem at all with Mullins' integrity.I see it as his absolute right to change his mind as often as he wants until final declaration time.
If you decide you are going to do something a certain way but the more you think about it the more you realise there is actually a better way,do you go ahead anyway with your original decision or do you change your mind?
Report cyclops December 19, 2017 3:47 PM GMT
Superbly put.

The vilification of trainers is almost always ignorant and based upon the weird presumption that people who spend their lives working with horses are actually Machiavellian characters scheming away, putting one over innocent punters as they take pleasure in deceiving the public upon whose support the whole enterprise basically relies.

Mullins is in an impossible position and he squirms noticeably when someone like Matt Chapman chisels away for his plans.

For trainers of strings of horses who may be Cheltenham bound, the last thing on their mind is which race to run them in, at least until the Festivals hones into view and they assess which of their horses are sound and in-form, what the opposition might look like and, much nearer the day, what conditions might be. For those like Mullins, whose owners also have options with other trainers, the picture is murkier still.

The thought that they should know where they're going and have any sort of responsibility to punters to inform them (and then be vilified should they change their mind) is just nonsensical.
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 4:04 PM GMT
So now I have called him a cheat!!
Don't think I have ever said that,but feel free to try and find such a post.
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 4:40 PM GMT
Stating bookmaker owned horses are going for a race which is not backed up by stable activity on here taking innocent punters money is bringing racing into disrepute. Insider trading is not an accepted antepost practice it never will be. Apologists are idiots.
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 4:44 PM GMT
I wont get into discussions with ftv as he is someone constantly looking for an argument on here. His knowledge of racing and betting is naive to say the least. He is entitled to his opinion like all of us though.
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 5:00 PM GMT
The announcement re Vautour(bless him)was made during festival week at the final decs for Ryanair.

I don't care how much Ricci apologised,he should never have said something he did not know was true,not in this game when peoples money could be affected by what he states as fact.
Its this sort of thing that annoys people and fuels ammunition for those that feel that all is not above board with the yard,or people close enough to the yard that can use information to affect betting patterns,which has occurred.

I for one wish owners were never asked about running plans,and if they are asked,to simply say.....that's up to the trainer and leave it at that.
I understand trainers being asked,but I wish they would just say....... when we know you will know and leave it at that.
We all know what options horses have at the festival anyway,and what price they are in the build up to the festival,so we can then form an opinion as to what we think they will run in,look at prices and then make a decision whether to punt or not.....that's antepost,and some you may get right and others you may not.I can take that on the chin if it goes against me,its my thoughts that have got me there.
However,if I backed a horse on the strength of what someone close to that horse had said,and that horse ran in a different race,then I would not be happy,and would think long and hard before trusting that person again.

Anyway, I'm exhausted with this subject now,everyone on here knows my thoughts,and I doubt anyone cares!!!
Report The Sawyer December 19, 2017 5:03 PM GMT
I thought the spin on Vatour being "re-routed" to the Ryanair was that the horse hadn't been showing the same sparkle as before and "wasn't the same horse as last year". And they didn't want to send a 90% horse to the gold cup.
Report firstimevisor December 19, 2017 6:03 PM GMT
Eric, I believe I have only had 2 debates with you - this one where you whinge and moan about ante-post non runners,and the other was on the finian's oscar thread where we had a different opinion about speeds at different distances. I don't look for arguments but if someone is writing a lot of unreasonable rubbish I sometimes do get involved.

Budd, lets face it it's pretty obvious you are calling him a cheat for years even if you havn't used the specific word. A person of low integrity? We're not in a court room. Your name is "Buddeliea" - its safe to come out.

It's when you say "I don't care how much Ricci apologised,he should never have said something he did not know was true." What more do you want-blood? We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.This happened almost 2 years ago and you are still obsessed by it.You even admit to being exhausted by the subject yet you just won't let it go.

Cyclops echoes my thoughts exactly and I would like to think the majority of racing fans understand the increasing pressure being put upon trainers.
Report wellchief December 19, 2017 6:04 PM GMT
The truth is that history has shown us that backing a Mullins horse antepost comes with a lot more risks than other trainers. I don't think anyone is saying Mullins is being deliberately deceptive, but there is a bigger health warning when backing one of his imo.

That could be because he has so many good horses with multiple options, or naive owners shouting their mouth.  Whatever the reason, in recent years Gold Cup Vautour backers, 4 miler Black Hercules backers and Albert Bartlett Champagne Fever backers have seen their horse dot up in another race which would have to leave a sour taste.

As I've said, I don't think Willie does this to annoy punters but there is a history of switching, but when you see massive drifts and gambles on exchanges 24hrs before news breaks is what gets me. Also the bulletins saying a horse is working well, only to be then ruled out soon after makes you scratch your head (I'm sure they said Killtagh Vic was fine when he got injured in that save by Ruby)

You put your money down, you take the risk...I just think some trainers are more risky than others.
Report firstimevisor December 19, 2017 6:22 PM GMT
Yes, second-guessing Willie Mullins is an impossible task but we know that for years. Its just his personality as much as anything. He thinks outside the box. He sees things that others don't which in ways makes him such a great trainer.You can only tip your hat to him as to how those bizarre switches have got such incredible results.
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 6:43 PM GMT
Its a mistake that simply should not have happened, and imo cannot be defended,but you carry on if you feel you have to.
I am not obsessed as you put it,just used it as an example.Maybe Eric is correct and you like an argument on here,seems that way.
As I have said I have never called Mullins a cheat,so don't say I am calling him a cheat for years,its untrue.
Chief has put it better than I have,and pretty much echoes my thoughts.
Report impossible123 December 19, 2017 6:54 PM GMT
I fully endorsed the two latest contributions of 'wellchief' and 'buddeliea': it is not the risks of punting antepost - that's generally accepted it comes with huge risks - caveat emptor! But what connections alluded to / stated / nominated but regularly resulting in an opposite outcome (eventually), and that "accolade" has to go to Mullins and Ricci, by a long chalk.

Buveur D'air has been installed clear fav / joint fav for the Champion Hurdle by most bookies,...inside info with impending update (negative) about Faugheen imminent? If so, sad for racegoers and his admirers.
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 7:00 PM GMT
Far from a great trainer of chasers they dont have a clue when they keep backing Djakadam off the boards against Sizing Europe and i believe he was Gold Cup favourite (dont laugh at the stable shrewdies please).

Also his chasers have not been able to jump properly over the years hopefully he got someone in to correct that as he was hopeless at it. Latest victim Douvan by the looks of it who will never have won a Queen Mother unfortunately.
Report firstimevisor December 19, 2017 7:10 PM GMT
The 3 of you sure don't forget your grudges do you?
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 7:35 PM GMT
Emotion doesnt come into it betting mate. Maybe grudges is where you are going wrong. Say what you see..simple
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 7:57 PM GMT
Can you fill in the missing numbers for the feature chases at the Festival ftv? As i say, say what you see...simple.

Champion Chase winners-
Paul Nicholls 5
Nicky Henderson 4
Jessica Harrington 2
Willie Mullins ?

Gold Cup winners-
Paul Nicholls 4
Henrietta Knight 3
Nicky Henderson 2
Jessica Harrington 1
Willie Mullins ?
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 8:00 PM GMT
Maybe thinking ‘inside the box’ is needed eh?
Report buddeliea December 19, 2017 8:01 PM GMT
Grudges ??
Report eric_morris December 19, 2017 8:05 PM GMT
Vautour was his strongest ever chance of a Gold Cup winner and we (sort of?) know what happened there.
Report firstimevisor December 19, 2017 8:44 PM GMT
Oh yes eric that just reminds me...You can add Mark Bradstock to the Gold Cup role of honour.He's a lucky man he ran Coneygree there when he got the chance eh?
Report jedi sophie December 19, 2017 10:13 PM GMT
Was I who called him a cheat, happy to stand by that....

Some of his treatment of the people who effectively lead to his employ over the years has been disgusting frankly....

And anyone who has consistently backed a horse over a 6 month period looking forward to the big week in March, hoping there horse gets there fit and well , maybe a bit too much on, horse gets there and then connections switch,use an excuse, so those and those around can stick there nose in the trough for a solid day before everyone else is exactly that, not a genius, just a greedy ****.......
Report jedi sophie December 19, 2017 10:15 PM GMT
Never nice to be absolutely done over while others s**** in the background,never....

Grudges merited.
Report irishone December 19, 2017 10:23 PM GMT
few here need to remember he started by winning the bumper every year, now he vies for champion festival trainerevery year. so grinding on the british jockey club , they have seen it coming however and changed the rules sacrificing quality with local quantity . willie wont worry about that.
Report impossible123 December 19, 2017 11:04 PM GMT
It is going to be more difficult for Mullins to be Festival Champion Trainer next year post his divorce from Gigginstown, the hot-pots of Elliot (Samcro/Apples Jade/Death Duty) and Hendo (Altior/Buveur D'air/Apples Shakira/Top Notch); a tall order without Douvan and Annie Power, and possibly Faugheen.
Report Arklearkle December 19, 2017 11:06 PM GMT
Some right bitter ones with obvious sad lives on here.
Report Can't Catch Me December 19, 2017 11:19 PM GMT
You're right Arkle.

Deary me Jedi. A cheat Laugh Presumably you feel trainer, owner and jockey teams should consider who you've backed before they choose targets next Festival?
Report wellchief December 20, 2017 8:34 AM GMT
Haha, I like your honesty Jedi. My views aren't as strong as yours but I agree that it grates me when I see all money on exchanges getting hoovered up the day before one is ruled out or switched, it does leave a bitter taste like insider trading.

As I said earlier, it's most likely because he's got so many options so has to balance his squad, but stable staff profiting off the back of it is wrong (although that's not exclusively to Mullins, but more frequently than other trainers), and whether Willie has anything to do with it or not, this sort of reputation is beginning to follow him round now.

If you back one of his for a race and you see an alarming drift on Betfair, you know your fate before the announcement. This does happen with other yards, but not to the same extent.

I agree with impossible too, he'll have a real fight for top trainer this year. He'll probably do well in the novice hurdles again, but doesn't have the all star, all conquering squad of a few years ago.

I wouldn't call myself bitter. You need to have a long memory and learn from your mistakes, so I know longer bet antepost on a Mullins runner because if this.

I'm much more sceptical of antepost in general because this is a trend thats getting bigger, so why dip your toe in now for big risks when so many offers on the day. I'm only small stakes, last year about £500 bet on the entire festival but about 20% of that was on non runners antepost.
Report cyclops December 20, 2017 10:01 AM GMT
For everyone who lost out because Vautour was switched, there were beneficiaries in the Gold Cup Market for everyone who had taken prices on other horses on the assumption Vautour would be running.
Ante Post is at least partly about luck and many would have seen his defection as a welcome stroke of luck.
This is not to say the matter wasn't poorly handled - it was - but Mullins took a decision which turned out to be a cracking one. He won a Ryanair with a horse who would have been most unlikely to stay the Gold Cup distance and, even if he had, looking at two out in the King George, he'd have been beaten anyway.
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 11:46 AM GMT
That really is hilarious from cyclops in the Christmas season wonder if he is an insider on here. He is extolling benefitting from the misfortune of others and sees nothing at all wrong with his viewpoint.
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 11:50 AM GMT
Maybe Stoutey should have run Shergar in the Group 3 Gordon Stakes instead of the Derby it would have justified the trainers decision after all.
Report buddeliea December 20, 2017 12:08 PM GMT
Spot on Chief

Think I will just let you post on my behalf
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 12:09 PM GMT
There was a lot of money for Vautour in the run up to the Go.d Cup hence the outcry.

There has to be a point at which a late blatant switch like that has to bring into question the need for transparency of the liabilities the bookmaker owner had on the Gold Cup for the horse. I take it we are to believe the owner is a bookmaker to make money out of bookmaking? If so transparency is required and a statement of their liabilities on the horse should be published.
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 12:22 PM GMT
Lets say the owner had liabilities as a bookmaker on his horse that would lead to his frim making a 3 million loss on the Gold Cup.

The winner of the Gold Cup wins about 327 grand. If he switches his horse late while putting everyone onto the Gold Cup he makes all the antepost stake money on the Gold Cup from his horse in non runner bets (I know these were refunded after the outcry, would they have been if there wasnt an outcry?) and removes the risk of his firm losing the 3 million on the race.

Also the bookmaker would have very few liabilities for the Ryanair as he was always stated as on target for the Gold Cup until late so punters are taking a poor SP for him for that near the day.

There needs to be transparency if this is going to happen. We need liabilities of bookmaker owned horses at Cheltenham to be published.
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 12:25 PM GMT
Also it knocked out all the antepost bets punters had been placing on the Ryanair all year right up until the last minute. Daylight robbery of those bets how much was made from them?
Report cyclops December 20, 2017 12:53 PM GMT
Simply saying eric that for every loser in the Vautour fiasco there were also winners; part and parcel of ante-post betting. I had nothing on Vautour and was not particularly bothered where he ran but did profit from his switch, having obtained better odds on the winner than I would otherwise have done.

As for bookmakers influencing racing, I would suggest that McManus is many times more likely than Ricci to be pulling strokes. The difference is that McManus never talks whereas Ricci is effusive. While Ricci is CEO of a bookie, I don't get the impression he's a huge punter though I may be wrong. Try policing the activities of McManus and you could have an entire force on the job and get nowhere. He all but owns NH racing and pulls far too many strings to ever be reprimanded. Honorary member of the jockey club.

As a punter however, you have the option of not betting and this is an option I would employ if you are uneasy with these situations. You either throw your hat in, with full knowledge of potential pitfalls or give it a wide berth. Can never work out the anger of many myself.
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 1:01 PM GMT
Point taken on McManus you are likely correct on that. I am not angry, you dont need try to balance the discussion like that as what i stated is perfectly rational.

I, for one, after many years punting antepost on jumps am now thinking of leaving it alone as there is no value antepost now with the insider trading going on with sponsored trainers. High profile owners who are bookmakers making late switches is terroble PR. Greed is bringing the game down but they will always have people wanting to bet on 2 flies climbing a wall regardless of what goes on behind the scenes.
Report unclepuncle December 20, 2017 1:02 PM GMT
20 Dec 17 12:22

Lets say the owner had liabilities as a bookmaker on his horse that would lead to his frim making a 3 million loss on the Gold Cup.

I'd be amazed if the entire industry had even a fraction of that before the late switch, let alone one tiny insignificant online boommaker. If they had liabilities of £50k I'd be amazed.

There really is nothing to see here unless you are wearing a tin foil hat.Laugh
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 1:16 PM GMT
He didn't just refund bets taken on vautour, he paid them out as a winner so Eric should now assume Ricci's mouth set him back a cool 3 million
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 1:17 PM GMT
Depends how much he took on the Ryanair the whole year
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 1:21 PM GMT
“There were lots of bets for him after his run in the King George [at Christmas],” Jon Ivan-Duke, of William Hill, said. “All the way along, it’s been Gold Cup, Gold Cup, Gold Cup and now it’s the Ryanair. If you were a punter, you would feel that you’ve been duped by Rich Ricci.”
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 1:22 PM GMT
If it is above board them what is wrong with transparency?
Report eric_morris December 20, 2017 1:23 PM GMT
We should know how much. What if there hadnt been an outcry?

“I don’t know how much or how little we paid out, I just said look, it’s the right thing to do, so let’s do it,” Ricci said.
Report jedi sophie December 20, 2017 1:53 PM GMT

Following me around the forum now....

Fwiw you only need go back a couple of weeks for another example of HIS people benefitting from his underhandness with the general public, never mind the general public who like a bet.

Douvan for the SECOND year running. Not a one off but the SECOND year running he absolutely shafted everyone. Horse favourite on the drift markedly, not just that but others of his on the move, and other fancied horses on the move.

Pink and Green polka tinted glasses over here is it.?

Oh Mullins is great fan club. Congratulations mate. You keep following him mate, if so you'll probably have a real bloody nose around March with your own little portfolio.

In reference directly to your post I wouldn't expect him to consider my antepost bets in the slightest, I would however expect him to acknowledge the betting public as a Large cog responsible for putting him where he is within the horse racing industry, up on his pedastal,so therefore instead of trying to shaft them for his and those close to his benefit he could at least show a bit of respect, integrity, or honesty....

Think you underestimate the importance of the Festival to some, in particular the Irish.

I personally know of people who were going there in anticipation of winning life changing sums on above Vautour case, to not even get a run. Again only those close to the great man benefited.

Report jedi sophie December 20, 2017 1:57 PM GMT
And another thing, I didn't lose or gain a solitary penny on the Vautour case.

I have TWO brothers in the industry at a decent level that furnish me with a lot of things that go on not necessary with Mullins but a lot of people,

It's just that he is so publicly inconsiderate of the common punter as champion trainer that it grates. Knowing full well many are following him over a cliff, particularly at Cheltenham.
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 5:16 PM GMT
I really can't believe how so many ante-post punters (mainly the new breed of social media outraged types) have taken up this position of such self-importance that their own needs now are more important than the event itself.
Its just a matter of time before punters are demanding football managers release their team selections weeks before a big game because its not fair on those looking to bet on the goal-scorer markets.

The trend of horses drifting alarmingly before withdrawal is here to stay. It happens across the board with every yard. It cannot be stopped because it cannot be policed.Every day of the week there are horses on this exchange where all bet requests are hoovered up in an instant and you don't notice because they're mostly low profile horses.

Can anybody point out to me any internet website where you can play a guessing game for large sums of money provided you really are guessing? If you actually know some of the answers then you are not allowed to play. I'd really like to see how this works.

The problem,for those of you who think there's a problem, doesn't rest with the owners, trainers or stable staff. The problem is the exchanges.So if you can't cope with the risk of backing injured horses or horses who run in races you didn't want them running in then stop screaming like a child and wait until race day. If you see horses drifting alarmingly then there's probably an announcement coming,but rather than screaming at somebody who's done nothing wrong,you need to just suck it up and grow a pair.But if you feel the need to constantly protest then protest against the use of exchanges for ante-post markets.
Report impossible123 December 20, 2017 6:50 PM GMT
McManus / Geraghty / Noble Emperor = Irish Jockey Club!

I'd not back Mullins / Ricci's horses antepost with free money. Instead I'd rather give it to charity to benefit someone in need and not to enlarge the satchels of their cronies. Mr Mullins withdrawing Vroum Vroum Mag minutes before she was due to run at Sandown after h had lost the trainer's title to Nichols was wholly disrespectful to punters and racegoers; he did it without due consideration to the racing fraternity but wholly for self regard. A shocking and selfish behaviour, in my book, and rightfully, he was fined by the Sandown Stewards for his despicable action.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 7:08 PM GMT
Yeah I was at Sandown when he withdrew Vroom Vroom Mag, was pretty gutted to be honest!
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 7:49 PM GMT
I'd not back Mullins / Ricci's horses antepost with free money

Really? How often do you tell us this.Here is another example from the Tingle Creek thread

I'm a fervent user of antepost to try an enhance value whenever possible, but I've stopped backing any of Mullins'/Ricci's horses since the debacle with Shaneshill

And then just 2 days later

My money is on UDS running. At 7.8 here (Exchange) it could prove a gift come race day

Can you explain these crazy statements impossible123?
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 8:17 PM GMT
And then this when the final decs came out:

There is no question UDS should be at Sandown tomorrow to defend his crown unless he is not fully sound and/or wound up. Utter, utter, utter disbelief from nearly every racegoer and/or National Hunt supporter and disgrace to this trainer and connections.

UDS should be at Sandown for the Tingle Creek.

This had nothing to to with the trainers integrity but had everything to do with a greedy punter who took 7.8 on a horse who would have gone off odds on had he been declared to run and who then threw his toys out of the pram.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 8:42 PM GMT
He's wearing his heart on his sleeve, let the man do his thing, nothing wrong with a cheeky Mullins slag-off.....I was cursing Ruby Walsh to high heaven when drunk as a skunk at Cheltenham when he fell on Annie Power; does that make me a c*nt? Yes probably it does. But the world would be a boring place is we were all as straight and narrow as priests manhood at a nativity play
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 8:48 PM GMT
Don't you worry bigfield, impossible123 does his thing over and over and over again but he doesn't deserve to be given a free ride either.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 8:52 PM GMT
I know mate, fair enough if you want to call him out, fortunately for me I find his posts entertaining and amusing, bet he's a good laugh to go racing with to be honest!
Report buddeliea December 20, 2017 8:53 PM GMT
.....I was cursing Ruby Walsh to high heaven when drunk as a skunk at Cheltenham when he fell on Annie Power; does that make me a c*nt? Yes probably it does. But the world would be a boring place is we were all as straight and narrow as priests manhood at a nativity play


Classic stuff Big Field
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 8:56 PM GMT
He might be but I bet you'd hitch a lift home with someone else!
Report BigField December 20, 2017 9:01 PM GMT
Cheers buddeliea I try never to take anything in life too seriously.
And fistime I bet he'd be the type to smoke a green cigarette with me after and laugh about our unlucky tales from the days races
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 9:05 PM GMT
Yes I'd say he's a right bag of laughs
Report ReaseHeath December 20, 2017 9:11 PM GMT
you'll be blocked for calling him out, ftv - that's what he does - his goal is a 1,000 post thread with all the posts by him alternatively contradicting and agreeing with himself but never calling himself out on his own contradictions.

Either he has a brilliant sense of humour and the whole account is a total wind up or he has zero sense of humour and actually believes whatever he types at any given moment.

Still not sure which it is personally.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 9:14 PM GMT
ReaseHeath I just laughed out loud to myself at the thought of the first scenario, now that's a guy with a good sense of humour in my opinion haha, I really hope it is indeed the former.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 9:16 PM GMT
Though on second thought the second scenario is almost as funny, a man on the edge of lunacy changing his mind every day but never faltering to uncertainty, in fact I'm happy with him being either!
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 9:17 PM GMT
Yes Rease ,agreed but I'm leaning towards the second option.
Report impossible123 December 20, 2017 9:28 PM GMT
I do not put any soul on earth - dead or alive - on a pedestal and that includes The Queen thus horse trainers including Mr Mullins do not even come close; Mullins is good at what he does - no big deal - so am / was I at mine but I do /did not deliberately misinform and / or behave disrespectfully to others; his profession is only a sport, not saving lives. Similarly, some posters here who are not receptive or conducive to alternative views / opinions to theirs thus resort to personal abuse, infantile behaviour and name calling; I've had them on ignore ages ago, nothing but nondescript and unnecessary.

Talking about Ruby Walsh: he does seem to come off his mount at the last fence more often than any experienced senior jockey, I believe. What a fall from Annie Power? Would have been gutted if had her in an acca but a combination of premonition, Ruby Walsh and shortie last leg deterred me from doing one. Bookies friend?
Report ReaseHeath December 20, 2017 9:32 PM GMT
you should block yourself really - you're certainly not conducive to your own alternative views
Report BigField December 20, 2017 9:39 PM GMT
Impossible I was one of those to have Annie Power in the last leg of my acca, cheering her home from the stands was a great feeling hearing the crowd roar, then came the final flight and a few thousand pounds slipped through my 23 year old fingertips........this being the year after having her as the last leg of my acca in the World Hurdle cost me a few grand too.

I never seem to have the luck at Cheltenham :(
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 9:39 PM GMT
And he doesn't deliberately misinform others!! I just gave you a very recent example of same
Report BigField December 20, 2017 9:41 PM GMT
Firstime would you say it's completely out of the question that Mullins has never said something to lead a market to sway one way which would enhance the chances some of those that know him have of getting a decent price on a horse? Likewise with laying a horse also.
Report firstimevisor December 20, 2017 9:57 PM GMT
I'm sure he has said lots of stuff that sways markets but I would safely say he doesn't say anything to deliberately deceive. He doesn't care a damn about betting or prices and nor should he have to.In fact he cannot understand punters trying to predict targets when he himself freely admits he's often more unsure of targets than punters think they are.He would be far happier if he wasn't asked any questions at all and just let his horses do the talking on the race track.But when someone shoves a mic in his face and asks questions, then whats he going to say but whatever he's thinking at that moment in time.
Report impossible123 December 20, 2017 10:03 PM GMT
Bigfield, commiseration. Accas are nigh impossible to get right and only managed one the previous Flat season; it paid over 124/1 but only for £2.50 (fun bet). But the antepost on Don Cossack at 8/1 (GC) and Diminuendo at 16/1 (Oaks) were for several £100. And, as for both the Mares hurdle races at the Festival, I'd leave alone 'cos they are mainly for the sole benefit of Mr know what I think of the bloke! But Altior beating Min in the Supreme made my day, though.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 10:09 PM GMT
Firsttime I see it as a benefit for 'the lads', Mr Mullins saves money in wages by not paying all 'the lads' as much and in return they get the inside info of which they don't have to pay any taxes on. Similar to the way Mullins and O'Brien use a form horse as a false fav to get a bigger price on their unraced/unproven one which duly romps home. Of course they don't need to win money themselves, but those lads in the stables who are up at 4am every day need their bonus year on year
Report BigField December 20, 2017 10:10 PM GMT
And Impossible it's all part of the game isn't it! Those antepost wins must have been a real joy!
The Mares novice festival race is indeed made for Willie Mullins to get an extra winner at, easy money though for us I guess.
Report BigField December 20, 2017 10:11 PM GMT
And speaking of Altior beating Min, does make you wonder how good Altior would be in a Champion Hurdle given the chance
Report impossible123 December 21, 2017 12:24 PM GMT
Bigfield, indeed, Diminuendo (3rd 1000G / Cecil) beating Sudden Love (Lumani) in the Oaks was marvellous to watch. Similarly, Rodrigo de Triano in the 2000G with Piggott perched motionless until the 2f marker at an inflated price post a disappointing performance on atrocious ground in the Greenham; my principal bet in that Supreme was Buveur D'air with Altior as a saver, but Mullins had his revenge with Yorkhill after Geraghty took a scenic route on Yanworth in the Neptune.

Swings and roundabouts, this horse racing "game"...never take it too seriously, may I hasten to add.
Report impossible123 December 21, 2017 12:27 PM GMT
Altior would have skated home in the Champion Hurdle if bypassing the Arkle (which he won) last season: he was sublimed in the Supreme Hurdle.
Report The Dragon January 12, 2018 6:25 PM GMT
out for the season
Report impossible123 February 16, 2018 12:20 PM GMT
He is missing again in the Red Mills at the weekend, but he is very well - a typical piss-take by Mullins. There was little or negligible chance of Douvan running in the 2m 4f race after he'd been campaigned over 2m in all his chase races when he was sound,...unsound, no chance!

Piss-take of the highest order by the head honcho of Closutton stable. I hope no one has backed him antepost, if so, commiseration.
Report impossible123 February 16, 2018 2:46 PM GMT
But he's going straight to Cheltenham, according to assistant trainer Patrick Mullins but no nominated race though. He is entered in the Champion Chase and the Ryanair,...a repetition of the fun and game associated with Vautour perhaps (again).
Report Magic__Daps February 16, 2018 2:52 PM GMT
They do and say as they please, anyone who listens and backs anything on there say so will end up in the poorhouse. Disgusting outfit when it comes to how they treat punters, regarding any of their horses - although there are some lucky punters who manage to lay theirs when they run shockers (it seems the market seems to know as well which is obviously just coincidence)....
Report impossible123 February 16, 2018 4:21 PM GMT
After today Douvan is unlikely to be Cheltenham bound, in  my opinion, regardless of what connections have reportedly said; betting antepost on horses from this stable must be 'nrnb' only otherwise the poorhouse beckons for sure.

Total Recall for the Gold Cup, another red herring in aid of the bookies perhaps. The horse did not even run in any of the Gold Cup trials eg John Durkan, Lexus or Kinloch Brae, how absurd!
Report maelduin February 16, 2018 4:36 PM GMT
Total Recall is a 9 year old so not really adsurd to run him in the GC. Sure an unorthodox race last time out but he did win the Hennessy. All told this isn't a vintage GC and he deserves to take his chance. imo
Report impossible123 February 16, 2018 5:50 PM GMT
True, but Total Recall (TR) was receiving 14lbs from Whisper to win a neck; Might Bite beat the same horse by 2l on level weight. For a trainer to deny Vautour a run in the Gold Cup (GC) despite horse's credentials but commit Total Recall (a handicapper) so early for the GC this year is bizarre, in my opinion.
Report GAZO February 16, 2018 6:02 PM GMT
Doesn't the owner have a say
Report unclepuncle February 16, 2018 6:37 PM GMT
The only person talking out of their arse is you I123.

Slag Mullins off constantly saying he is a lying snake yet you are only too happy to tell us all how you have 5/1 on Footpad or have had a sneaky bet on Yorkhill for the CH.

Utterly two faced.Angry
Report eric_morris February 16, 2018 9:51 PM GMT
Report eric_morris February 16, 2018 9:52 PM GMT
Ignore the stable, the trainers chase record in the championship chase races is pathetic so not too much to worry about if they do run.
Report eric_morris February 16, 2018 9:57 PM GMT
Also good news Walsh is back from injury trying his best not to tell us anything while taking the pundits cash.
Report Fashion Fever February 16, 2018 9:59 PM GMT
where does this leave min ?

can't believe they would both run in the QM

surely goes against everything this stable has done in the last 5 years
Report eric_morris February 16, 2018 10:01 PM GMT
Oh well someone had to take it seriously.
Report buddeliea February 17, 2018 7:36 AM GMT
Min will run in the Champion Chase.
Report Desmond Orchard February 17, 2018 10:42 AM GMT
Eric has a point, WPMs record in the championship  Cheltenham festival chases is noticeably poor when set against his overall performance at the festivals. I suppose there’s only 3 a year however (if we are counting the Ryanair) and it could just be a too small a sample to draw conclusions from and he will redress the balance in time.
Or it could be that he gets the best out of the very top ones early in their career, leaving little improvement (Yorkhill); or even leaving them susceptible to injury (Douvan); or maybe he’s just been unlucky (Vautour).
They used to say that Pipe only got one good season out of horse, as his methods were so taxing.
It will be interesting to see if we can say the same about WPM in another 5 years.
Report eric_morris February 17, 2018 12:02 PM GMT
Cant get them jumping well enough for Championship pace over fences and bad decisions (Vautour best chance of Gold Cup winner ran in lower standard Ryanair).

Mikhael D'Haguenet a prime example brilliant hurdler couldnt get him jumping for toffee. Happens over again could be they also buy potential top class hurdlers hoping they will turn out to be top chasers rather than looking at chasing types who might not be the best hurdlers.
Report unclepuncle February 20, 2018 10:28 AM GMT
Well Mullins undoubtedly should have won a Gold Cup in the Stewards room even it would have been with an outsider.

They always talked about Douvan as being a future King George / Gold Cup horse (similar to Vautour) so I don't see any reason why he couldn't run in the Ryanair if he was well - though I doubt he'll run at all.

Min only has one option and thats the Champion Chase.
Report Arklearkle February 20, 2018 1:05 PM GMT
A couple of years back it was great to come on the Cheltenham threads and get away from the mainly cr@p delivered on the main racing thread. However now it seems we are being treated to the same childish rubbish over and over again on here.
Post Your Reply
<CTRL+Enter> to submit
Please login to post a reply.


Instance ID: 13539

New to Betfair?

You need to open an account before you can add content to the forum.

Opening an account only takes a few minutes.

register now