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Big Black Cat
03 Dec 17 20:31
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Date Joined: 04 Oct 02
| Topic/replies: 634 | Blogger: Big Black Cat's blog
MARSHA (ACCLAMATION x MARLINKA) is lot 1848 at Tatts Mares sale on Tuesday (should sell at around 1700)

So my esteemed breeding friends out there, a couple of questions.

How much is she worth (7 figures? I presume)-I mean she's a dual G1 winner. Very sound, tough, correct and consistent.  Pretty smart page.
Will the usual suspects get into a bidding war (that would help the price no doubt)
And if you had the funds to buy her, who gets to cover her?

Interested in any opinions.
TY
BBC
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Report proxygene December 3, 2017 10:36 PM GMT
At the risk of:

spending
Report proxygene December 3, 2017 10:37 PM GMT
not sure what happened there
Report proxygene December 3, 2017 10:40 PM GMT
At the risk of
Spending
Report proxygene December 3, 2017 10:44 PM GMT
Final attempt.
At the risk of spending under £60K,
Killing the thread
Inbreeding to Marju
Assuming it will be Galileo whatever
1 Ribchester
2 Kingman
3 Iffraaj
4 Galileo
5 Lope De Vega
My guess £2.2 mill
Report Big Black Cat December 3, 2017 10:55 PM GMT
Thanks proxygene-you got there in the end!

I saw someone on a different page suggest Dubawi.  Why not!? If you can get in and afford him.

I too assumed Galileo, or one of his sons.  I was a big INTELLO fan personally.

Kingman was a very fine animal indeed-Elite have used Ifraaj (her half brother JUDICIAL is not too shabby and by him) and Lope de Vega.

I have seen estimates of between £2-3M-I guess it depends who gets involved.  You would think that a lot of the big boys would be interested.

Just one final thing-I presume the sales are open to the public too?  I was thinking about popping down on Tuesday to see what occurs....
Report proxygene December 3, 2017 11:05 PM GMT
It's great cheap theatre if you keep your hands in your pockets...
Report Big Black Cat December 4, 2017 12:16 AM GMT
Yes-will keep my hand firmly in my pockets just in case I end up with a big bill, and a mare with no stable to go to.

I suspect the esteemed baronet would keep her for me overnight though....

Must try and catch a word with MV before she goes on sale.
Report kincsem December 4, 2017 4:15 PM GMT
How much is she worth?
I think she is worth £200k.
How much will she sell for at the sale is a different question.

And if you had the funds to buy her, who gets to cover her?
I could run the breeding program I've written to find the best mate but I'm too lazy.
I did it for Goffs, tatts, Arqana Breeding stock sales.

You have to be careful with racemares when you buy them as broodmares.
What makes them a good racemare is often no help when picking a stallion prospect.
If i was guessing where Marsha got her ability I would look at her dam lines.

Acclamation's third dam (Sea Melody) and Marju's second dam (Welsh Flame) might be the clue.
Both have Tudor Minstrel (Hyperion sire line) on their sire lines, and both have Hyperion on their dam lines, with other duplications of Fairway, Hurry On, Salamandra, Lady Juror.
Or in simple language, Sea Melody and Welsh Flame come out of the same pot.

Marsha's fourth dam, Tralthee, has another link, as she has Owen Tudor, the sire of Tudor Minstrel.
Owen Tudor is by Hyperion.   Tudor Minstrel is by Owen Tudor by Hyperion.

Those linked dam lines of Marsha come from Hyperion sire lines meeting Hyperion dam lines.

Where do you find a Hyperion sire line stallion for Marsha these days?
It is all Northern Dancer or Native Dancer sire lines.

I haven't fully recorded all sire lines in my 978 sires database.
A quick look shows Anjaal, Babodana, Pastoral Pursuits, Major Cadeaux. Toylsome as Tudor Minstrel sire line, so it SHOULD be one of those.
Heresy!  They are standing at 5k and under.  She will never go to one of those.
She will produce poor runners to Northern Dancer or Native Dancer sire line stallions imo.
(fwiw I have 48 sires by Galileo in my sire database)

Who cares about producing poor runners?   Sales price is the yardstick of success.
Report Big Black Cat December 5, 2017 12:39 PM GMT
Thanks for a thoroughly enjoyable and in depth analysis kincsem.

You are quite correct on so many points-we had awful trouble getting Soviet Song in foal-only 2 foals from about 6 seasons in the paddocks.  This was partly attributed to her racing until she was 6 (she had other troubles as well of course).

Marsha'a dam comes come from our prolific Kalinka family of course-theres numerous black type on her page and that side of the pedigree.  The sire is doing well this season as well, and has a pretty good record at stud of course.

Like you, I think she will go to a 'fashionable' and pricey stallion, not any of the ones you list....
Report sageform December 5, 2017 12:51 PM GMT
I would suggest Bated Breath. By Dansili so not necessarily a pure sprinter and from a good Juddmonte family.
Report Big Black Cat December 5, 2017 1:35 PM GMT
Might be pretty speedy that one sageform?  Juddmontte stand some quality stallions.
Report sageform December 5, 2017 4:10 PM GMT
Speed is what Marsha is offering but both she (Barathea) and Bated Breath (Dansili/Danehill) have Group 1 mile winners not so far back in the pedigree.
Report Big Black Cat December 5, 2017 8:41 PM GMT
To say I'm gobsmacked would be a massive understatement.

Little old Elite's breeding programme has produced a European sales record Holder.

I hoped that both 'The Lads' and Godolphin both wanted her-and they did.

Off to Galileo.  No surprise at all!
Report RoyalAcademy December 6, 2017 10:38 AM GMT
That's some result BBC although one suspends judgement until you get to see how much is actually lodged in the bank account.

I recall you and I sparring some years ago as to where exactly "ownership" lies in Elite. I suggest you and your fellow members are now about to find out.
Report Big Black Cat December 6, 2017 10:46 AM GMT
I'm hoping its somewhere near £6.3M to be honest Royal Academy! Thank you!

I don't know what the arrangements are-perhaps they will defray some costs with a few juicy nominations to some of their stallions?

I can tell you now, I will not be seeing a penny of the 6.3 Mil appear in my bank account.  Early thoughts are we are looking at our nominations for our mares, now we have a few extra quid to play with.
Report RoyalAcademy December 6, 2017 10:54 AM GMT
You are remarkably sanguine about the situation. Can you offer an opinion on £6m being banked privately regardless of what "juicy nominations" are booked?
Report Big Black Cat December 6, 2017 11:17 AM GMT
I paid something like 90 quid for my membership Royal Academy due to my discount for my long service and my percentage of winnings from the horses over the year.  The only thing we are entitled to is this discount and the percentage of the winnings.  If Marsha or any other horse won a BC race or a race worth 2 or 3million, the same rules apply.  The winnings go into a pot to be shared out amongst the members.

I think we all are aware of the rules of being in the club.  We don't own anything, we just enjoy watching, racing and hearing about the horses.

This is not like a partnership of 10 people in ownership.  This is just 10000 or so members having some fun.

The 6 mil will go on various things to be decided-obviously I will have no say on that, and that's fine.
Report sageform December 6, 2017 11:32 AM GMT
Really hope she is a success at Stud but breeding speed to stamina can produce neither.
Report Big Black Cat December 6, 2017 11:41 AM GMT
Yes sageform agreed.

However, this is a template that Coolmore have used to some success recently.  Galileo bred to sprinters has produced at least 2 of their multiple G1 winners (IIRC Winter's dam is Laddies Poker Two who was a sprinter, as was Meow the dam of Churchill and Clemmie)

Its the Galileo bit that seems to impart the stamina of course-and the toughness and will to win.
Report sageform December 6, 2017 2:05 PM GMT
Shame that the members won't get a share of the Guineas first prizeHappy
Report Big Black Cat December 7, 2017 1:18 PM GMT
Unfortunately not sageform.

But then again we may not have sent her to Galileo due to the 300K involved either!

The rumour is that although her dam MARLINKA was due to go back to ACCLAMATION this year, they may now be a rethink.

I don't know though.
Report Formtwist December 7, 2017 9:28 PM GMT
BBC you do credit to yourself and Elite in your sensible and clearly expressed financial assessments. For the minimal investment you make annually, and I hope that you take that as the compliment intended, you have the exhilaration of several Club horses racing at the highest level. Greed and envy you are free of so hearty congratulations and may you have many more days in the sun....
Report Big Black Cat December 7, 2017 10:44 PM GMT
Thank you Formtwist-taken very much in the spirit intended.

I'd love to have a few quid going into my bank account but I consider this.

Marsha is the 4th generation of our foundation mare Kalinka.  I've not paid for any of the mares or the coverings that led to her birth.  I'd have needed to spend several hundreds of thousands of pounds for the privilege.

So whilst I don't get anything but a bit of the prize money, I've had the pleasure of EIGHT group one wins on the flat for much less than £2k over 15 years plus.

Not to mention a Triumph hurdle winner.

Plus lots of other graded winners on the flat or over jumps.

I've had my money's worth many times over-I think I do Ok considering.
Report RoyalAcademy December 8, 2017 11:07 AM GMT
Greed and envy you are free of so hearty congratulations and may you have many more days in the sun...

That's a rather pointed barb Formtwist; what candle are you carrying?

I have a sneaking regard for BBC's wholehearted enthusiasm even if it smacks of naivety if not something more sinister-one more supporter here would make a nap hand.

Elite is a wholly brilliant concept for the promoters and they have an asset base valued, probably, at something in eight figures to keep them warm at night. As that guy on Eurosport might say, "chapeau!"

Everyone that pays up knows the score in relation to the ownership rules but my question is valid on the basis that the outfit's best mare, Soviet Song, was retired to stud within their acclaimed breeding programme but now, the Marsha cheque for £6m is being cashed and, jolly hockeysticks, aren't we going to be buying some really juicy nominations that the club could afford in any event.

The owners are cashing in their chips to the detriment of BBS and his fellow members. Can we admit this and wish them well, even if we are a little sad about losing a dual Group 1 winning mare from "our" programme?
Report Big Black Cat December 8, 2017 11:28 AM GMT
Royal Academy-the terms and conditions of club membership are very clear: ''Members are not acquiring any of the bloodstock equity".

So there's nothing to argue about to be honest.  I don't think I'm being naïve at all based on that?

So Marsha, Soviet Song, Penzance, Elgin, Border Patrol, New Seeker, Ribbons et al are/were not really 'mine' even if I told everyone  they were.

The reasons for Marsha's sale are compelling, and arguably based on the lessons learned from the sorry Soviet Song affair.  We have Marsha's dam and several female siblings.  We all knew she would be a highly commercial proposition at the sales-and we were right.

Its a business-what would you have done in the circumstances knowing you have her dam and her family?  Sell her for a guaranteed 2-3 million to inject some capital into the business, or breed from her and take the risk she might produce something remotely as good as herself?

We're getting the best of several worlds here.  The cash. The chance for her to be a successful broodmare as she will be visiting the very best stallions (Galileo this year) and the chance for her offspring to win some big races under the supervision of a master trainer which will only enhance the value of the family further?

The only downside is that we won't be racing her progeny-that will be someone else's risk. Of course, if her sons and daughters win several big races, there will be regret.  But we have been handsomely compensated for that.

We turned down two bids for Soviet Song in the £2-3M region which, given what happened, I'm sure the club regrets now.

And that's why they took the decision to sell?
Report RoyalAcademy December 8, 2017 11:58 AM GMT
Your reply borders on the barely credible BBC.

Let me tell you what the Elite owners have done to you.

You have been a wonderful mouthpiece for them over the years extolling the virtues of the connection to a racing and breeding operation that is beyond most people's affordability. What it costs is largely irrelevant because you simply do not know how funds are applied when received and one can assume a number of bonanzas over the years. To suggest that the most likely primary motivation for her sale is to "inject some capital into the business" is risible in the extreme.

You and your fellow travellers have been denied the "mouth watering" prospect of racing a number of Galileo/Dubawi colts or fillies out of a dual Group 1 winning mare which I understood - from your heady prose - was the whole point of the operation. I daresay if the cupboard was bare Coolmore would come to some arrangement with you to pay the nomination in instalments although the influx of hundreds of new members following on from Marsha's success might assuage that little problem. Lordy, even an alternating foal-share deal would give you a foal, 2yo and 4yo etc.

The poor breeding record of Soviet Song justifies nothing as she WAS retired to stud and, that, is what one would expect based on the club's philosophy. Her bad luck stands to the credit of the owners but they would not be bitten twice although one could always sell a foal or yearling or two?

Frankly, your talk of the "cash" benefiting the club and enhancing the value of the family - you have just offloaded the Crown Jewels -is BS makes me far more suspicious of your motivations.

The question as to what "I would do" is a red herring and irrelevant: please don't try to conflate a very commercial cash making decision with some kind of motivational philanthropy on behalf of the members.

You asked for opinions from your "esteemed breeding friends", sorry to crash the party.
Report yer ma December 8, 2017 12:18 PM GMT
Getting 6m (anything over 3m tbh is very good).  If BBC and other members (to me its a bit like joining racingUK or English Heritage - gives you benefits but no tangible ownership) are happy with the situation then all good.  Mr AJ Hill will be caning it in through some relatively simple accounting method but good luck to him as his decisions have clearly been right in the last 10 years.   The idea he'll be injecting loads of capital into the business is probably fanciful given the low value of breeding stock assets in the accounts (i.e. they dont buy expensive stock and don't pay for expensive covers)
Report Big Black Cat December 8, 2017 1:11 PM GMT
The decision to send Marsha to the sales was taken by whom RA?  Do you know? I do-or at least I know what I've been told?


Let me give you an example. If you have a high value asset for which there is likely to be a high demand for, then is it not better to cash in on it (especially if you have several close relatives and her mother) because there's no guarantees we're going to see any superstars coming from her?

As you are an 'esteemed breeding friend', perhaps you can tell me how many superstar G1 winning mares produce anything like as good as themselves? Miesque? Ouija Board? Urban Sea?  There are some of course.  A lot of the superstar mares in the breeding business are 'related to' a very good racemare however?  Elites own Tribute Act was a miles better breeding mare than her illustrious sister Soviet Song.  And she won a Kempton maiden.

To me, the principle of this sale is no different to that an owner who's bough a colt at a breeze up sale for 20K only to find after he's raced it a couple of times and its won impressively that he gets a phonecall from Godolphin (or the like) who are interested in buying his colt for many times the fold of its purchase cost.  So what does he do?  Does he take the money and run (negotiating a covering or two if the animal goes to stud) or does he say no thanks and take the risk the horse will be a top class colt and hope he wins a big race.

Selling Marsha is a commercial decision to raise cash-there's no doubt about it. 

For the record, there were several prominent members of the Elite management team who advised Tony Hill to cash in on Soviet Song at the end of her 2 yo career (there was a 7 figure bid on the table).  He declined. He took the risk that she was something special and having her in the club would swell the membership.  He was right. It did.

You are quite correct.  I don't know where the money is going.  Tony Hill may retire to the Bahamas and set up an office there and send me my weekly newsletter by air mail.  But he takes all the risks-they decide all the nominations (with Dan and Maurice involved no doubt)and my 90 quid would barely pay for Marsha's flu jab every year.

I have no problem if you think I'm a mug or a simpleton-that's your prerogative.  I do take umbrage at your thought that I may be something other than a normal club member with any sort of agenda. Because I'm not.

Yer ma-as for not paying for expensive covers-our first three nominated stallions this year are Churchill, Gleneagles and Acclamation.  All around E30-40k  I believe?  If you define Dubawi/Galileo/Frankel as expensive then you are of course quite correct.

Thanks for your replies.
Report RoyalAcademy December 8, 2017 3:29 PM GMT
As you are aware BBC we agree on most aspects of this business and save me the lecture on the economics of racing and breeding-I've been around the block. Club members, well aware that they are ultimately paying for Mr Hill's good fortune, have been shafted as I see it. You seem to forgive this in your benevolence and that's your prerogative. Maybe future events will prove me wrong but I've said my piece for now.
Report Big Black Cat December 8, 2017 4:01 PM GMT
I will gladly save the lectures on the economics RA etc as you clearly know where the pros and cons are.

For the record, Marsha was advised to be sold by none other than her trainer.  Of course the club didn't have to take the advice but they did.

Mr Hill may well be getting rich on the profits of this and other sales-but he set the business up and he took all the decisions and the risk.  I imagine he's pinching himself as to how lucky he's been.

I'm hoping he gets a bit more luck too.
Report truehoncho December 8, 2017 8:17 PM GMT
Wow, I am Mr super naive here, I thought that the money would be distributed to the members??? I was actually suprised Marsha was being sold as I thought she would be bred with and assumed some sort of vote had taken place. I would have thought she would have supplied the club with great racehorses for years to come and selling an odd colt out of her some revenue to keep the show on the road. I am a massive fan of syndicates and think that nowhere near enough is being done to promote the sport in that direction but not sure that this is a good example of a racing club activity. Don't get me wrong,it must have been great to have an interest in her for such a small amount of money, this week I had my first winner as an owner breeder. She is a 4 yo old and it cost me £20k to win £1,700 and I gave her away after the race so I realise the value of clubs and syndicates.
Report Big Black Cat December 8, 2017 8:45 PM GMT
Congratulations on your winner truehoncho.  Fantastic for you.
Report potentialmillionaire December 8, 2017 10:19 PM GMT
Well done truehonch. I am currently haemorrhaging money to a trainer in pursuit of the ridiculous so I appreciate your results all the more!
I am not sure a racing club like Elite is so very hard to get our head around.
A subscription to a year's Horse and Hound magazine I am guessing would cost more than your Elite membership BBC, and whaddya know you consider your money well spent.

I can't really find much to fault about that!
Report truehoncho December 9, 2017 9:19 AM GMT
Thanks both. Again I emphasise my naivety and I am sure that the Elite club provides great fun for little cost and bring loads of people into the sport that otherwise wouldn't have been, so well done to all.
Report Big Black Cat December 9, 2017 10:22 AM GMT
PM and truehoncho-I have said before how much I admire people like yourselves who go out and do it for real. Spending real money. Making decisions about matings/trainers etc etc. Having to live with the financial consequences of your decisions!

I'm sure your winners mean the world to you because you've made all the hard decisions yourselves.  And so they should.

Continued good luck to you both.

BBC

PS If I win the lottery, I will certainly be trying to change a large fortune into a small one by breeding some racehorses...
Report proxygene December 10, 2017 8:17 PM GMT
Congrats Truehoncho, can I surmise that we are team mates next year albeit indirectly?

I think I come from the opposite direction regarding Elite. I thought it was a subscription club, like the HnH analogy, with no returns coming back even winnings. Under those circumstances if everyone is happy with the Ts and Cs how can Elite be anything other than a major success? Would the Marsha funds allow purchases to be made to pad out numbers of runners as well as going into upgraded matings?
Report Big Black Cat December 10, 2017 9:12 PM GMT
proxygene-the club currently has 21 horse in training (including 5 yearlings).  They also have 6 broodmares currently either in foal/barren, plus several foals.

There is a vast imbalance between flat and NH horses (Elgin, Bardd and Volcanic are the only NH horses).  A fair swathe of the membership have been pushing for some time for the purchase of one or two NH horses (our broodmares are largely likely to provide horses for the flat, however Elgin is a homebred).

Of course buying a decent NH horse is expensive.  I feel now though the management really have nowhere to go on this issue with such a large amount of new income.

Personally, I'd be looking to significantly upgrade our coverings for our mares to some of the top quality stallions around-Galileo/Dubawi and the like, but then I'd like to breed a Guineas/Derby winner (wouldn't we all?)
Report proxygene December 10, 2017 9:44 PM GMT
I think if the previously planned full sibling to Marsha mating has been stalled then there really can be only 3 sires that could justify that jump, Galileo, Dubawi and invincible Spirit
Report Big Black Cat December 10, 2017 10:32 PM GMT
I agree proxygene.

It has to be one of those three (or Frankel maybe) if its not Acclamation :-) :-)
Report proxygene December 10, 2017 11:10 PM GMT
oh yes Frankel and See The Stars
Report Big Black Cat December 10, 2017 11:39 PM GMT
STS would be an interesting cover as we have a half brother to Marsha by Cape Cross....who they like a lot.
Report potentialmillionaire December 11, 2017 9:55 AM GMT
Given that producing sprinters appears to be Marlinka's game I am not sure that I would allow too much pedigree affinity or glamour chasing to send me down the classic route.
No, keep it simple Dark Angel would be the way forward.
Report proxygene December 11, 2017 10:15 AM GMT
I hadn't run Marlinka but was just exploring the logic of retreating from Acclamation. Yes Dark Angel is a better sire than his Dad and makes sense.
Report yer ma December 11, 2017 10:53 AM GMT
Covering speculation aside - as I said down the thread, the accounts say breeding stock is (grossly under) valued at about 600k.  BBC mentions at least 30 'club' horses -  the foals / yearlings are valued at their cover, the mares at in foal are valued at the covering (at very minimum), racehorses can be valued at whatever unless you intend to sell.  Two or three 'top' covers and they've blown their rather interesting stock valuation (and that clearly has profit / tax issues, but clearly so does selling a racehorse valued at nil for 6 mill).  Oh what a prob to have!
Report Big Black Cat December 11, 2017 11:01 AM GMT
PM/Proxy we are fortunate to have a Dark Angel-Marlinka filly foal at the minute which obviously is a highly commercial animal to have!

An Acclamation cover would obviously be highly desirable as well.

The temptation to cover her with a 'big name' stallion is very tempting as the funds would be available....but like you say, all her progeny so far would appear to be speedy.  I'm told the Cape Cross is not going to be a sprinter though (as you may expect)

yer ma, I think 600K grossly underestimates the breeding stock.  I mean if we sent Marlinka to the mares sale, its surely got to be more than that alone!?

Thanks for your replies
BBC
Report Formtwist December 11, 2017 7:10 PM GMT
To clarify for you Yer Ma and BBC, stock for accounting purposes must be valued at the lower of cost and market value. Cost being nomination, rearing, and any direct costs. It is likely to have been an audited and correct valuation on that basis.
Report Big Black Cat December 11, 2017 10:56 PM GMT
As long as the accountants are happy....

Should be more news tomorrow as to what the Marsha cash is going towards, so I'm told....
Report Big Black Cat December 12, 2017 10:59 AM GMT
The Club purchased a horse in anticipation of Marsh's sale at Book 1 earlier in the year.

She's a yearling filly SEA THE STARS x SHAMWARI LODGE.  The dam is a Listed/G3 winner by Hawk Wing. She cost G100K

Had a quick look at her page-theres a fair amount of black on there-her 3rd dam was the dam of Pipalong who was a pretty decent sprinter.

The dam has already produced a listed winner of £200K in prize money by ACCLAMATION (I like him) from 3 foals.

The full sister foal apparently made G270K recently and was bought by Shadwell.

There have been more pronouncements of further bloodstock purchases in the next 12 months.  We are also in the position to add both ZEST and ROUBLES to the broodmare band as well.

Im assuming this filly has been bought to race and as a breeding prospect to diversify our gene pool somewhat.
Report RoyalAcademy December 12, 2017 5:07 PM GMT
This proprietorial "we" and "our" is Trumpian, the ultimate in fake news.

It is "they" and "their" - I'm fed up of this faux ownership. Jack Spratt can pay 200 quid and also claim to own a portfolio of racehorses, foals, yearlings and mares. Please cease and desist this nonsense.
Report Formtwist December 12, 2017 7:13 PM GMT
Why such vitriol, Royal Academy? Lots of members of all sorts of clubs feel proprietorial about what happens in them and what is wrong in that?. Elite is a force for good in racing, keeping lots of people in work at studs and stables, and giving huge numbers of people a taste of it all for affordable amounts. I know of many part and whole horse owners now whose first experience of racing was through Elite. The rules of the Club are clear - if you don't like them don't join - but have the decency not to vilify those who do and love the experience so much that they want to share it.
Report Big Black Cat December 12, 2017 8:16 PM GMT
Royal Academy-I really don't understand your problem.

What I do with my hard earned is my business.  Similarly, what you do with your money is your business.

You've made your point.  If you don't like what I post. Ignore it.

We established long ago that I don't own anything.  I refer to ERC as 'we' in the same way as I refer to Sunderland Football Club as 'we'.  I own equal amounts of both.
Report neill d December 14, 2017 2:14 PM GMT
I think a lot of us, especially here in Ireland, find the British thing of having a toff racing manager or toff run syndicate distasteful.

A guy like Harry Herbert for example, I'm not going to ask what he does, but rather what value he has.

I think syndicates are just another way for the already wealthy to rinse the green racing fan, albeit, BBC is aware of what is going on; some guys will expect more.

I've had friends be part of syndicates with Supreme, and DeBromhead, they way they were treated was disgraceful; that is being objective, too.

I know I'm conflating a club and a syndicate here, but I'm sure there is some poor dope waiting on 'his share' of that 6 million.

Royal Academy is an excellent poster, he just has no patience for bullsh!t! So is BBC, if he isn't an ALT from Elite!

I'd have massive respect for trainers and breeders, guys that put their neck on the line. Syndicate managers, the likes of Harry Herbert, bloodstock guys like Tom Malone, the lads ripping off Paul Nicholls & Donald McCain's owners, they'd make me sick and are analogous to parasites.

Given all the opportunity someone like Herbert has had, now I don't know whether the guy is capable or not, but given all the opportunity he has had in his life; the fact that he chooses to spend his time doing a job that is so worthless is actually him thumbing his nose at the less fortunate in society, but then maybe it is all he is capable of.
Report Big Black Cat December 14, 2017 2:35 PM GMT
neill d-I'm just an ordinary member of ERC-I'm no rep or anything like that.  Just someone who enjoys an interest in racing for peanuts every year.

My interest in racing started at university.  I used to have a yankee every Saturday with 3 other lads I shared a flat with.  One selection each. I followed a young apprentice called Frankie Dettori.  He turned out to be quite good.

Later I joined a syndicate of 10 2yo with a Northern trainer-cost me £500-horses were plating standard. £100 returned and no winners. Not a great experience to be honest.

I joined Elite using my Winnings off Benny the Dip in the derby (33/1 after the Sandown Classic Trial).

I have a better insight into what goes on in preparing and training racehorses from talking to some of their trainers at Stable Visits.  James Fanshawe is a favourite.  I'd love to meet Sir Mark, as he's a very entertaining chap, and can train a bit too.

I have a real interest in breeding though.  Bloodlines do fascinate me.  Obviously I know the Elite bloodlines pretty well, but I do look at other ones of course....

I enjoy it.  That's all. I do feel proud of being associated with the club as a member.  I'd love the club to keep on doing well. 

The ultimate of course would be to be cheering on a homebred Classic winner.  You can always dream.
Report neill d December 14, 2017 2:38 PM GMT
Apologies for questioning whether you are legitimate BBC. I wish I had your enthusiasm, I'm very cynical; I'm glad you get such enjoyment from the club, it is good value in your case.
Report Big Black Cat December 14, 2017 3:47 PM GMT
No apology needed neill-I guess I can be a bit overenthusiastic, but I enjoy the club and I enjoy my racing. But I am legit and I've got a membership number to prove it!
Report potentialmillionaire December 14, 2017 5:27 PM GMT
Neil D if we are having a bit of a racist generalisation, I would perhaps venture an opinion that the majority of Agents so well versed in the art of ripping off their clients come from your side of the sea!
The thinking of Harry Herbert to front organisations such as Highclere and Al Shaqab is one of an air of respectability and trustworthyness.
You obviously don't buy that but I do suspect that Highclere is run with more integrity than most.
And boy do the members pay for that!
But I think they know what they are getting as it is all perfectly transparently expensive!
Report neill d December 14, 2017 5:36 PM GMT
Its the lads in Ireland are running the biggest game of all I agree.

Its what people are getting, is it enough? I don't think it is sustainable myself, but I guess we will see in a generation's time where the sport is.

Syndicate numbers have dropped big time in Ireland, and I think it's because people are seeing it for what it is. Not many return customers.
Report RoyalAcademy December 14, 2017 6:11 PM GMT
potm, I think you are now introducing a new element to the argument, however valid your assertion might be.

In my view BBC demonstrates a shocking level of wide-eyed innocence with pronouncements that he'd love to breed a Classic winner despite the fact that his beloved club has just sold the best opportunity they may ever have of visiting the world's best stallions having decided, instead, to rely on National Lottery aspirations and average sires or unproven Classic stallions.It doesn't ring true to me that one could be so sanguine about this given his stated love of the club and the game. Zero sum game springs to mind.

I think its this innocence from the consumer (racing club member) that neill d is remarking upon rather than any racist dog whistle.

I find BBC's innocence baffling and I don't know if it reflects naievity or something more malign. He expertly manages to keep a number of threads running with a level of simple-mindedness that includes telling us that a modest Sea The Stars purchase will help assuage the concerns over the trousering of £6m, that the sale is liable to tax (how on earth does he know this? and the possible answers are all implausible) and the old adage of all attention being good attention springs to mind. Oh! and guess what? Prescott advised them to sell the mare...well, I never!

It's all good fun though.

P.S. We may come back to the probity of agents soon enough. For now I'll just remind you that all the sales companies in Ireland have expressed the view that such matters only seem to be reflective of skulduggery in the UK ring and there's nothing to see here in Ireland. In a country that demands 4 days notice before a stud farm can be visited for random drug testing I think we can all sleep peacefully.

P.P.S. They was a certain sad irony to the Racing Post carrying the 2018 mating plans of whistleblower Philippa Cooper this week along with the brilliant Chris McGrath's piece on the fall from grace of James Delahooke - a former star that us great unwashed might call a "toff".
Report potentialmillionaire December 14, 2017 6:14 PM GMT
That's sad neil, I hope people go in eyes wide open though because let's face it ownership alone is not for any sector a route to making money.
Obviously a tiny few who tie it to stud management make it happen but I think syndicates have to ramp up the enjoyment levels (or snob appeal viz Highclere) so the cash haemorrhaging seems worth it.
There are way too many people in our game who just look for someone to fleece before moving onto the next.
They are vile creatures.

Some syndicates or clubs are long term fixtures so I imagine they are getting it largely right.
Report potentialmillionaire December 14, 2017 6:24 PM GMT
RA suggesting that BBC is or is potentially 'innocent' 'Naive' 'Malign' 'simple minded' 'how on earth does he know' 'implausible' 'shocking level of wide eyed innocence'.

That's not all good fun, it's just rude.

It's 99 quid a year and he loves it. What is your problem????

And for heavens sake, what on earth constitutes a toff? Is it based on a type of Tweed, number of chins or a Labrador?

It's subjective at best.
Report Big Black Cat December 14, 2017 7:11 PM GMT
RA I don't know how I've managed to rattle your cage so badly with my overenthusiasm for a racing club?

You may well be right.  Marsha may turn into Coolmore's Hasili or Fall Aspen for all I know.  If she does then fair play to them cos 6m guineas will be a snip.  If it was my decision to make, of course I would have kept her and bred from her.  But it wasn't my decision to make.  I could get all steamed up about it.  But there's sod all I can do about it anyway.

Elite have her dam, and half sisters so they may still breed that elusive Classic winner.  Who knows. Their broodmare band is not too shabby. They have more money now to upgrade their nominations.  They have used Galileo in the past.  Who knows some of the mares may go to him, Dubawi, Frankel or the like.  That's yet to be decided. Again I'm not going to stress about it.  Its not my decision.  I'm sure there's a budget for covering the mares every year-I'm sure its just gone up by a few quid. 

Innocent. Simple minded. Malign.  I may be all of the three.  But I'm a decent human being who has been brought up to be polite and respectful of other opinions, and to other people-even if they disagree with me.

Perhaps you would care to take a leaf out of my book?

Average sires?  I'm sure some of the breeders on here would like to use Acclamation, Gleneagles and Churchill, Dansili and Oasis Dream like the club will be doing this year or have done in the past.

Elite bought a horse at the sales. It cost a fraction of the 'Marsha money'.  Given they expected her to sell for about 3M, and she was bought before they knew about the 6M  They want to buy some more too. Is it a slow news day?  Racing Club invests in bloodstock. News at 10 here we come.

Presuming that there is some capital gains tax involved in selling an asset like Marsha?  The tax man usually wants a share of the action as of course do Tatts.  So its not really 6.3M is it?
Report neill d December 14, 2017 7:54 PM GMT
I think there are few sports if any to match racing, especially top flat racing in England in the summer.

Its just the lying that certain syndicate managers in Ireland engage in that I find hard to stomach.

I remember Luca Cumani saying that ownership is a leisure pursuit and that one should expect it to cost money and I agree.

Its just the freezing out of syndicate members (and eventual kicking out for questioning this) that I can't stomach.

I think ownership is best left to a single person or group of friends that can afford it basically is what I mean.

Racing and UK Racing! has some properly brilliant people working within the industry.
Report sageform December 17, 2017 8:04 AM GMT
I'm sure that there are some shady people running syndicates but the best experience I had was Executive Racing run by Ian Rees. I had a 1/12 share in Lucky Bay and every penny spent was accounted for and a full set of accounts sent to all members. Prize money was all credited to members as was the eventual sale price and Ian insisted on taking no payment for running the syndicate.
Report truehoncho December 18, 2017 11:21 AM GMT
Hi Neil, I think the point is if syndicates were run well then many more could afford real ownership. There is far too little being done by the powers that be to promote and govern syndicates. There should be no problem in this day and age having a fixed financial commitment and genuine share of rewards (if there are any). I think there should be a system where syndicates are rated (i.e 1 star, 2 star etc) that represents the type and security of syndicate being offered. For example a 5 star syndicate is a single payment (or agreed payment through the season) for a horse that will run and be sold at the end of the season come what may. At the end of the year syndicates can be rated on how well (financially or otherwise) they did. What is so hard about that? the whole industry is geared around how much money is made (owners, horses, stallions, pinhookers...the list is endless) so why not syndicates. I'll tell you why (an opinion) most people running them are running them for themselves.
Report neill d December 18, 2017 4:51 PM GMT

Dec 18, 2017 -- 5:21AM, truehoncho wrote:


Hi Neil, I think the point is if syndicates were run well then many more could afford real ownership. There is far too little being done by the powers that be to promote and govern syndicates. There should be no problem in this day and age having a fixed financial commitment and genuine share of rewards (if there are any). I think there should be a system where syndicates are rated (i.e 1 star, 2 star etc) that represents the type and security of syndicate being offered. For example a 5 star syndicate is a single payment (or agreed payment through the season) for a horse that will run and be sold at the end of the season come what may. At the end of the year syndicates can be rated on how well (financially or otherwise) they did. What is so hard about that? the whole industry is geared around how much money is made (owners, horses, stallions, pinhookers...the list is endless) so why not syndicates. I'll tell you why (an opinion) most people running them are running them for themselves.


Great idea, would help hugely.

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