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02 Apr 11 05:35
Date Joined: 17 Aug 10
| Topic/replies: 22 | Blogger: daveboygreen's blog
Ive been using the Arcade on here for about 9-10 months and although ive had problems that have given me cause for complaint nothing disgusted me as much as the play I experienced on it last night.

Stakes     Winnings     Profit/Loss
561.02     302.00     -259.02

In total I deposited around 250 pounds during the session which lasted not long at all, played several games, Rainbow Riches, Family Fortunes, Rubiks, Betfair Reactors 100 as well as others and just got no play out of anything at all.

I also filled the bonus bar again during the period and for the 2nd time this week was awarded just 2 pounds!! So here was me thinking....ok you have taken me for a mug at least you could do is give me something worthwhile from the feel good friday bonus but hardly surprising that after playing through nearly 3000 pounds earlier in the week I yet again get awarded with the bare minimum of 5 pounds which was taken off me in no time with no winnings.

Now, ive started to find a bit of a trend with the Arcade, everytime ive made a withdrawal ive found that the Arcade will take it all back off me before giving me anything...I withdrew only 100 pounds earlier in the week which as you can see from what I played through last night and my profit/loss was taken back with interest!!

All in all im pretty sick at the money ive spent on Betfair Arcade for the play ive had, too many things on the games lead me to believe that Betfair are not playing fair....things ive pointed out in the past like the bonus with 3 lephrachans on Rainbow Riches only paying between 9x and 20x each time or Rubiks never paying more than 14 line win still have not changed but really...what is the point in complaining to Betfair....they couldnt care less about giving the customer a fair run for their money....I for one would like to see betfair investigated and at the very least made to advertise their payout percentages for each for me...thats me finished with Betfair Arcade, im not even going to waste my time trying to complain because they will do absolutly nothing!!
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Report Esox April 3, 2011 12:14 AM BST
Interesting post. You explain very well some of the things I have noticed with the Arcade. Maybe they have taken note of your comments the Rainbow Riches 3 leprechauns just paid me 175 times missed the 200 by 1. I have had a few big wins around £1000 but never seem to be able to do it again until I spend at least that amount again.
Report daveboygreen April 3, 2011 2:40 AM BST
I did in the end bother to ring customer support and although there was no manager or supervisor to speak to I spent 45 mins of my time discussing my problems with the customer support agent who in turn passed them onto someone to contact me, same old story, Betfair staff armament that everything is run fair and all to do with RNG's, they way they talk to you about problems you have they make you feel like the unluckiest gambler on the planet yet when it comes to being awarded 2 pounds each time for filling the bonus bar your the luckiest person alive!!

Only on 3 occasions have I been awarded more than 2 pounds for filling the bonus bar and 95% of the time the bare minimum 2 pounds yet the 2 pounds prizes total to less than 50% of the prizes on offer, needless to say Betfair have no answer for this except its all completely random.

I did however have both the customer service person and supervisor who rang me back earlier today completely stumped when they thought that by baffling a load of rubbish about RNG's to me it would make me accept their explanation....not a chance....I hit them both back with....Yes I agree it can be completely random but that is not to say that only certain wins are included in the randomness of the RNG for example wins over 20X with 3 leprachauns on Rainbow Riches or wins above 14 lines on Rubiks etc etc etc are not included in this....on both occasions neither the customer support agent or supervisor had anything to say to that.

I did come away from my complaint with a 50 pounds gesture from the supervisor, I made a point about my custom not being valued and I was not impressed with neither the play on the site or explanations given to my complaints, the supervisor I spoke to during the conversation said she would love to be able to do something for me then offered to have the bonus department look at my account and see if they were willing to offer me a goodwill bonus so I quickly jumped on that have said you would like to do something for me....prove me that my business is valued to yourself and Betfair and you credit me with a bonus....which she did although typically it was all taken off me in next to no time on the arcade I still feel that even though it was given to me to make me go away and stop complaining it was something I got from them for my custom but for 3000 pounds in losses it hardly seemed worth it, I still feel like ive been robbed blind by the Arcade, wouldnt mind as much if id got more play for my money and a variance in play but its just the same crap over and over again.

Rant over....Lets just say that in future Betfair will be bottom of my list of sites to deposit on and use in the future.
Report SIR_Bond April 4, 2011 12:28 PM BST
Stakes Winnings Profit/Loss
52,384.30 51,667.01 -717.29

Join the club mate. The Casino area is even worse than this.
Report daveboygreen April 5, 2011 12:13 AM BST
I would be interested to know what others on here have had in the way of bonus bar payments, how many times have they been awarded just the 2 pounds and how many times a higher amount??
Report daveboygreen April 5, 2011 12:19 AM BST
Think im running a lot worse than you Sir Bond......

Stakes     Winnings     Profit/Loss
27,865.66     24,992.04     -2,873.62

Just in that one session I had on friday I lost over 1/3 of what you have in total and only played through 561.02

I would be a lot happier with your results, even though your down 717.29 its only about a quarter of what I am down yet you have had over double the winnings I have had
Report SIR_Bond April 5, 2011 9:09 AM BST
I dont play the slots that was mostly roulette.
Report charwell. April 5, 2011 11:59 AM BST
I had the bonus bar up about 5 times when I was playing them - never once got more than the derisory £2.

The games really are licensed theft. No payout % advertised tells you all you need to know. Complete & utter daylight robbery. But BF these days about ripping off the punter & maximising revenue.
Report daveboygreen April 5, 2011 12:10 PM BST

Im starting to think that way as well, when I was on the phone complaining to them I did also mention about the payout percentages for slots etc not being shown and the issue was avoided.

It really does also show how much Betfair care about the games and casino on their site as I am yet to see comment or reply to any posts made on these sections since I started to use this forum, seems to me that they are happy just to rip off customers and avoid the issues including ignoring what is discussed on the games sections.
Report daveboygreen April 5, 2011 12:12 PM BST
In saying that in the above post I would love for a community manager on these forums to comment on this topic!!

So if there is a community manager reads this then take notice and respond please!!
Report SIR_Bond April 5, 2011 3:53 PM BST
forget it mate.. they don't care because people will still play no matter what and they will still make plenty of money.

small fish big pond springs to mind.
Report daveboygreen April 6, 2011 9:14 AM BST
Apparently SIR Bond according to community manager 2 the relevant departments have been passed on the information and details of this topic and will respond as soon as possible...this was yesterday so we will see.

Got bored last night with other sites I was playing after withdrawing 200 pounds from 2 sites so come onto betfair, after 2 deposits it started looking like I was going to be royally screwed out of my cash again so left it while down just 2 deposits worth and went onto another site...silly me thinking I might actually win back some of what I have lost during my recent bad run on betfair!!
Report daveboygreen April 7, 2011 7:52 AM BST
RE: Topic on the games section
Apr 5, 01:03PM


Thanks for bringing this to my attention - the way I work is to take such comments to the team within Betfair that manages them.

So, although it may be me (ie BCM2) that replies, it will come from those directly responsible for the area of the business.

I have passed this thread on - will try and reply soon.



This is the message I had in reply to the one I sent to BCM2 2 days ago so we will see if there will be any response to this.
Report SIR_Bond April 13, 2011 3:20 PM BST
tick tock tick tock.

Forget it mate.
Report daveboygreen April 17, 2011 11:00 PM BST
I did message BCM2 again and said that I was still waiting for a reply, since making my original complaint I was given a 150 pounds bonus on the arcade but no explanation or answers to any of the points I raised, ive just noticed that they now have a new bonus bar system in place but im afraid I wont be on the arcade much at all in the future now after all of this so wont see if it works out any fairer than the old system.

Instead of investing in changing the bonus bar system perhaps the time and money taken to do this would have been better spent improving customer services!!
Report hudsonhicks April 18, 2011 2:58 AM BST
lol theres nothing "random" about the arcade on here or the games.. its all pure computer software designed to rob your money..

when i was a mug last year i used to play roulette and lose lose lose.. would see black come out 12 times in a row. random?? yeah right Plain
Report SIR_Bond April 18, 2011 2:20 PM BST
£150 pay off you got.. what happend you lost it all i bet?
Report daveboygreen April 21, 2011 5:25 PM BST
Well not quite, the 150 pounds was given to me as a free bet so had to play it through once before I could do anything with it, strangely though a lot of the games wouldnt allow me to play with the free bet at first so I just went on Rainbow Riches and played most of it through playing 2p a line 20 lines (40p a spin)

After id played through the free bet I had around 190 pounds, played a couple of other games and managed to get this up to 300 pounds then nothing would give me anything decent, just kept bouncing between 250 and 300 pounds so I withdrew 100 pounds then the rest was swiftly taken in no time, the last 60 pounds I transfered onto the casino and tried that but got nothing.

Since then ive deposited a couple of times but its just the same old story, ive now instead gone onto 2 other sites to use for games and casino which I have to say I am getting a lot more play for my money on than here, one site playing pretty much the same games as I would on here im up over 500 pounds in the last 2 weeks and ive played through 18,000 pounds and deposited a total of 900 pounds so im happy with that.

Still no explanation or answers to my queries and no response to this topic as promised by BCM2
Report daveboygreen April 22, 2011 9:15 PM BST
From Betfair Community Manager 2 on Apr  7, 12:34PM:

Sorry about that - I try to make everyone as prompt as me!

I'll chase it up again for you.

My Reply....

Over 2 weeks later and still no response to the topic on the forum.

I was given a bonus on the back of my complaint as ive described on the topic but was not as much as offered any answers or explanation as to the issues I had raised, simply giving me a bonus will not shut me up or stop me from following up on my complaints!!

This really is disgusting customer service and sorry to lay this on you but on 2 occasions you have promised to chase this up and 15 days since you last said to me you would still nothing, no response at all, even though I was given a bonus on the back of my complaints over the phone I think its only right that something in the way of goodwill is offered for such abysmal customer service, you said that you would follow this up then have simply ignored it since leaving me to continually chase this up, if there was an issue with this being followed up and a response put on the forum via yourself then it would have been only decent of you to have let me know, the fact that you have not says to me that in the hope that this will just go away its been chosen to be ignored!!

Im not giving up on this, I was promised a response on this topic via BCM2 so I expect one!!
Report daveboygreen April 23, 2011 7:38 AM BST
I forgot to mention as well that in all the phone calls I had to make to Betfair over the issues I had raised it has cost me just over 26 pounds in calls, would not have noticed it except one of the calls was over 10 pounds on its own!!
Report gfghgfhf April 23, 2011 9:31 PM BST
Have you seen the new rake it in for betfair game then ?

It's called "time machine" and if there really was such a thing as a time machine you would go back one hour
in it and make sure you avoid playing it, brilliant and clever program, it hooks you in by almost filling the plutionium
bottles on the side with the promise of a good win when you "eventually" get the 3 bonus black holes to drop in, it ups
the music to get it all exciting them makes you wait an age whilst of course fleecing your account balance then finally
giving you a feature then giving you a paltry prize, just to make sure it was not a one off i tried several times to
be fair to betfair but each time it basically robs you, not a game to play, a total avoid, it's robbery i'm afraid.
Report daveboygreen April 24, 2011 6:05 AM BST
It is on every site ive tried it on im afraid, cant just blame Betfair for this one haha

I played it on another site at just 1p a line, your right in that it keeps you waiting for the bonus then gives you nothing but once you get the bonus up I think 5 times you get the auction bonus which can give you a lump of what you lost beforehand back but I cant say ive ever come away from it with a profit after going through the whole bonus conundrum to get to the end, defo one to avoid in my book
Report daveboygreen April 28, 2011 2:17 PM BST
Finally a response although not as I was promised it would be by BCM@ as a reply to this topic I received an email half an hour ago.....

Dear David,

Thank you for your recent contacts to our customer services and to our forum community manager. I have previously had your contacts escalated to me, and I reviewed your play in relation to your concerns.

I understand that you are dissatisfied with a number of the slot games that you have been playing. Having read your correspondence and your forum posts I understand that you believe that the games you are playing will change behaviour dependent on how much you have won or lost previously.

It is this point that I would like to specifically address. Fixed Odds Games like a slot have no memory or your previous profits or losses. As soon as you click spin, a new result is requested, and the outcome of the spin is delivered. To an extreme, this could mean that every time you click spin, you receive a win, and conversely, every time you click spin you could receive a loss. As slot games have a built in margin (a % payback to the customer that is in favour of the house), it is expected that over millions of spins, you lose more than you win. The margin of the game is relevant to every single spin played on it from the time the game goes live. A single players interaction with the game is never likely to be spot on with the theoretical margin of a game, however the game itself will likely be at or near the margin most of the time. For example, the game Rainbow Riches has a theoretical margin of 5% (Return to Player of 95% as advertised within the Options> Help when viewing the game). After the first 45 days of the game being live the margin was at 2.4% as there were many customers winning more that the theoretical amount. This again is not unusual. We have had days when the game has finished over £84k down as customers received huge winnings, and there are periods where the game will lose money for days in a row. That is the nature of fixed odds gaming. We know though that over a long period of time, the games will return to their theoretical margin. Before it does though, we’ll have had large winners and losers. This will never change.

The assertion that the advertised multipliers within a game are not available I’m afraid is nonsense. The game’s RTP% is developed and modelled using the multiplier values that will eventually result in the engine build. The paytables that you can view are the visual representation of ‘where the money is’ in the game. By this I mean that whether the game has a huge multiplier like Monopoly’s 12,500 or whether the game has lots of low multipliers like Amazon Wild. The mathematics behind the engines are explicitly designed to provide an exciting and rewarding experience for the customer, and, depending on the appetite of the customer for the math model that has been designed, they will be hit or miss. We have games on our site that will give winnings of a small amount very regularly and other games that will have many losing spins before getting a big win. It is variables like these that appeal to different customers but the underlying thing to remember is that over millions of spins, each game will play out to its theoretical margin.

I would like to reiterate that there is no need to develop complex software that references a specific customers previous performance on the game - as all the games have a built in margin, which is advertised when viewing the game. From what I understand, you’ve not found where these RTP%s are stated, so to guide you, all you need to do is click on Options then Help and scroll to the bottom of the pop up window from any of the games that you are playing.

I have seen other posts from you referring to the Bonus Bar and your opinion on the low value of the rewards that you have been given historically. As noted, it is very likely that you will get the lowest value reward when you complete the Bonus Bar as they have the most ‘tickets’ in the draw. It is supposed to be like this, as we want to have the opportunity to give away large money prizes from the same Bonus Bar. We like the lottery element to it, the fact that you can win £10,000 from the standard and £50,000 from the VIP bar can really make a difference to the winners life. We have a % of money that we are comfortable with investing through this promotion and over time, the big winners coupled with the thousands of small winners will make up that %. Please remember that this free bet is effectively changing the margin on a game, as customers are getting back more from a spin that the game maths have designed as the Bonus Bar triggers on completion of wagering rather than as part of the winning lines on a game. The customers that trigger multiple Bonus Bars per day are likely to get the bigger wins simply due to the fact they are getting tickets more often; their average value won is greater than those that trigger the bar less often.

My last point I would like to make is that the games you play on Betfair Arcade will be the exact same games that can be played on other gaming site. Your impression that you get more play for your money on other sites may well be true, as randomness has no memory so there is every chance that you win more often at other sites. This is not to say that you will not have the same experience here however, but that as you should now understand is not guaranteed.

We do value you as customer and we do not want to lose you, however, personally I feel that gambling on Fixed Odds Games should be a fun and rewarding experience, and not an experience that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. My simple conclusion is that you should not play if you are not enjoying it.

Kind regards,

Ben McDonagh

So...3 weeks of waiting, numerous times ive tried to push for an answer to my queries and what do I get....basically a long drawn out email that results to nothing more than randomness as a result of everything ive experienced, discussed and others that have had exactly the same results as myself in the form of bonus bar awards etc.

Having taken 3 weeks and me having to chase this including 26 plus pounds in phone calls ive not even had what I would call a decent or appropriate apology and certainly no offer of a goodwill gesture for my time, effort and costs in like the topic title....Whats the point......really...what was the point?? my time has been wasted and im no happier than I was 3 weeks ago!!
Report SIR_Bond May 3, 2011 12:03 PM BST
i could of told you that 3 weeks ago you are wasting your time.

Betfair will not admit these are **** they have a long drawn out rubbish answer for everything.
Report daveboygreen May 4, 2011 7:35 AM BST
I did reply to that long drawn out excuse of an answer to my queries last week and yet to see a reply.

Things have just gone from bad to worse for me with the Arcade, thats it, ive finally had enough after the last few days play on here, nothing Betfair say will convince me ive not been robbed blind and had a fair crack at the whip for my money, totally disgusted with Betfair as a company with the way they treat customers and the fairness of the site.

Stakes     Winnings     Profit/Loss
533.79     362.17     -171.62

Thats over the last few days, still the same over and over again, exactly the same play on all the games ive played.....

Today even worse.....

Stakes     Winnings     Profit/Loss
134.70     62.58     -72.12

And they ask me why I wont use their site for poker??? Really if this is what I experience from the Arcade then how the hell do they expect me to trust them playing high stakes on their poker site!!!
Report Big Loser May 4, 2011 5:16 PM BST
This is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever read.

1. Betfair is in existence to make money
2. All online slots pay out 95% (ish) of what is staked
3. You cannot win by staking large amounts of money over multiple days / sessions
4. You only remember when you lose. When you have a winning session, you don't post on here about it.
5. Do a spreadsheet of all of your sessions on every casino / games / arcade site you use. I guarantee that over a decent length of time, your payout percentage will be roughly the same on each one.
6. I can understand you playing slots but, FOR GODS SAKE, if you want to play roulette / blackjack, go to the casino.
7. If you can't come to terms with the basics of probability and the notion that the entire purpose of these games is to take your money (while providing some small entertainment) then I suggest you look for the "self exclusion" button before you find yourself in real trouble.

I find it amusing that Betfair Customer Services even patronised you with a "Bonus" when they should really have flatly refused to budge (while wiping away their tears of laughter at your ignorance).

I would imagine that you fit all of their criteria for "Ideal Mug Arcade Player".

Discuss Happy
Report Heeeere's Johnny May 5, 2011 12:49 PM BST
Thanks BL.  I've wanted to post something similar for a while but haven't had the time.

No further discussion required [;)]
Report lesaint99 May 5, 2011 1:03 PM BST
to be fair, the arcade gives me a good game for what i stake, providing i play sensibly.  i'm around just over £1,000 up for the last 8 months, and could have been more if i'd been more careful, but as i've said to my wife i wouldnt have had the big wins in the 1st place if i hadnt been prepared to take risks.  the minute you start chasing your losses, and are not prepared to come off that day 'down', even though you may have been 'up' the day before, is where the trouble starts!!
Report SIR_Bond May 9, 2011 10:20 AM BST
How the hell you got a grand in the +.

It's all **** beyond belief.

You could cover that roulette table with £1000 and the one number you dont cover with any chips will come in more times than you would think could ever be possiable.

If however you stuck that grand one one number... it would never come in.

Strange that. Hmmm
Report Super Hanzz May 21, 2011 11:09 PM BST
LOL at this thread, MUG ALERT
Report ayce1234 June 1, 2011 11:25 PM BST
know how you feel as i am in similar siuation. my frind puts in quarter of ammount i do,yet every friday she gets more free bets
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